Hall of fame - Goodes

[PaulP]

Yes, I agree with most perspectives on this issue, but I find it hard to detangle the motives. It's clearly not true all those booing are racist, and it's clearly not true that all those booing aren't racist. It's clear Goodes is correct about racism, but it's clear Goodes is incorrect about the root cause of all the booing.

If Adam hadn't slid studs up into opponents, if he hadn't thrown himself on the ground free of any physical contact, if he hadn't directly denied doing those things to camera despite the obvious footage, would the situation have become as bad as it did?

I've heard it asserted Goodes used those "obvious denials" purely as a bait to flush out racism, but I think that is a revisionist claim that surfaced long after the other initial aspects of this debate.

I think Goodes has paid a heavy price for taking a stand on this issue, which is pretty much always the case when one person takes on deeply entrenched behaviours. I have no doubt he was deeply hurt and upset by these incidents, and if he was in it for himself I'm sure he would have accepted all the accolades that have come his way, rather than turning them down. Whether somewhere along the line he saw an opportunity to start a conversation about racism, and make it more than just about him, I guess we may never know.

[LP]

I think Goodes has paid a heavy price for taking a stand on this issue, which is pretty much always the case when one person takes on deeply entrenched behaviours. I have no doubt he was deeply hurt and upset by these incidents, and if he was in it for himself I'm sure he would have accepted all the accolades that have come his way, rather than turning them down. Whether somewhere along the line he saw an opportunity to start a conversation about racism, and make it more than just about him, I guess we may never know.

I think money has a lot to answer for in this saga, back in the day, greats of all colours and creeds retired gracefully, now for a wallet full of idolatry every game they hang on bitterly!

Personally, I think he stained an otherwise stellar AFL reputation long before in the very end it became about racism, the last few years of his career were really lowest common denominator stuff on field, not conducting himself in a manner fitting a Rolls Royce of the game. Fans don't forget, and they aren't naivé and as easily led as some like to think or paint.

I fear now it's become more lucrative for Adam to be seen a certain way, instead of working at revision and reparation from the inside, he's become an activist. I'm not sure the motives remain so pure.

[Thryleon]

Not all booing is created equally. Crowds boo for many different reasons. I suspect in Goodes' case, the shorthand phrase "booing" is about much more than just that simple sound.

The issue about him being booed is multi faceted. 

Motivation, racism etc is one of them in some cases.

Where it falls over though is his on field conduct and demeanor. 

I think the indigenous celebrate their culture in ways that sometimes go against the grain.

I.e.  currently, we have a be deadly and proud campaign.

The only time deadly is used in common vernacular is being deadly serious and being deadly is otherwise seen to be dangerous.

This campaign seems problematic to me but its on TV all the time.

Reverting back to Goodes for a moment, his celebration where he threw a spear at the cheer squad met derision from our fans.  Why?  Because he kicked a goal against us.  He threw a spear at us afterwards to ram that point home.  Of course our fans didn't like it.  They booed.

Is that racist?

I dont think so.  It was more than just a goal once he threw the spear its a psychological message.  Oh I was just celebrating my heritage.

To simply state the reaction was racist and the action a celebration ignores the psychological message that goal scoring in sports sends. 

[Mav]

As I posted when the booing of Goodes became a thing (no revisionism here), if you attend a protest because for you it means you can protest about a certain thing that annoys you but you find you’re surrounded by neo-Nazis, Proud Boys and nutters who are using it to push an agenda that disgusts you, you need to leave. Otherwise you are helping to push that agenda by swelling the ranks.

At least if you’re at a protest or a rally, you can hold up a sign to make clear what concerns you. But when you just boost the volume of booing, you don’t have the ability to separate yourself from the racists. And it’s just nonsense to deny that the ferocity of the booing and the way supporters of different clubs participated showed it had a very substantial racial basis. As I said back then, whatever grudge you might have against Goodes, separate yourself from the racists by STFU.

As an example of this, the racist far right likes to commandeer symbols that have had no racist element to them. The creator of Pepe the Frog has been dismayed that his creation is now a racist symbol. The OK hand gesture is now on the banned list given it’s now used to signify approval of far right groups (and a Jeopardy contestant was put through the mill after he used it innocently to reference his 3 wins). You can bluster all you want about your right to use words and symbols that have been co-opted, but that’s just ignorant. How many straight men these days describe themselves as gay bachelors?

We’ll expect St. Kilda’s Max King to be hounded from now on for successfully flopping to draw a 50 metre penalty that almost turned the game against Sydney. And I wonder why Darren Milburn wasn’t heckled universally for ironing Silvagni after he’d kicked the ball. And far from being hounded out of the game for sliding in and breaking Gary Rohan’s leg, I can’t even remember who was the culprit.

[LP]

Reverting back to Goodes for a moment, his celebration where he threw a spear at the cheer squad met derision from our fans.  Why?  Because he kicked a goal against us.  He threw a spear at us afterwards to ram that point home.  Of course our fans didn't like it.  They booed.

Is that racist?

I dont think so.  It was more than just a goal once he threw the spear its a psychological message.  Oh I was just celebrating my heritage.

To simply state the reaction was racist and the action a celebration ignores the psychological message that goal scoring in sports sends. 

Yes I agree.

I appreciate those taking a purely anti-racism stance do not want to see it that way, but I feel that stance will only slow progress rather than assist, in this debate we should not use tactics that polarise, we should deliberately look for and use tactics that unite.

I see it as an opportunity missed, some may suggest it has been derailed.

[LP]

We’ll expect St. Kilda’s Max King to be hounded from now on for successfully flopping to draw a 50 metre penalty that almost turned the game against Sydney. And I wonder why Darren Milburn wasn’t heckled universally for ironing Silvagni after he’d kicked the ball. And far from being hounded out of the game for sliding in and breaking Gary Rohan’s leg, I can’t even remember who was the culprit.

Firstly, Milburn was booed by Carlton fans until he retired and disappeared from view. I recall a game at the MCG a season to two back in which that highlight was played pre-game or 1/2-time and he was booed again long long after he retired.

Sorry, but there is a significant difference here about those examples and Goodes, of which Leigh Matthews is another prime example. When he retired Matthews did not deny the horrible unsavoury things he did on the football field, he acknowledge them, spoke of regret and apologised to fans and opponents.

Not sure if King has discussed anything yet, but I know Thomas publicly apologised to Rohan.

None of them stared down the camera and denied those events to fans that had just witnessed them!

[Mav]

That’s the point. Only Carlton supporters booed him. Yet in Goodes’ case, we’re told that supporters from across the AFL turned on him over incidents that you’d imagine would only aggravate supporters from the opposition team. And there are plenty of examples of players who were repeat offenders in various ways who didn’t attract universal hate, e.g. Luke Hodge.

[LP]

That’s the point. Only Carlton supporters booed him. Yet in Goodes’ case, we’re told that supporters from across the AFL turned on him over incidents that you’d imagine would only aggravate supporters from the opposition team. And there are plenty of examples of players who were repeat offenders in various ways who didn’t attract universal hate, e.g. Luke Hodge.

Are you claiming Hodge isn't or wasn't booed? :o

In the dying years of his flagging career Goodes perpetrated many of those acts against all teams, one of the videos of him throwing himself to the ground in the absence of contact is against Carlton, I think he staged high contact from Justin Murphy who motioned to hit him, although this might not be a late career example! What did Goodes say to provoke that, we may never know, but the concept that Goodes is an angel is laughable, and the behaviour became much much worse in the final years of his career, partly I'd claim because he was rewarded by officials for behaving that way!

The idea we should tolerate unsavoury behaviour for the greater good is untenable, it will only serve to divide rather than unite. If you've done something questionable, unsavoury or distasteful, own it and move forward, do not publish a denial!

[capcom]

I started this thread.  I don't like Goodes .. period.  Because of his on field tactics where he very deliberately hurt people.

His skin colour had no bearing whatsoever on that opinion.  I used the term "sook" because he is. 

[Mav]

Is all you have to do, LP, is to show that 1 person booed Like Hodge for you to equate that treatment with Goodes? Or is 100 enough? It’s sophistry to compare the responses which were clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to intensity and spread across different clubs’ supporter bases.