Post Game Passion: AFL 2021 Rd 2: Carlton vs Collingwood

[LP]

We did it years ago, it didn't work (Leading Teams same as Geelong).

If you've got a room full of old world psychopaths it's gold, but for many personalities it doesn't work.

I think the way kids are taught these days at school to identify bullies and bullying it won't work.

So we should make sure our list managers find us a couple of Bolta or Ziebell types. I think De Koning, Cotterell and Pittonet have a little bit of what we need, but beyond that the cupboard is bare!

[Baggers]

We did it years ago, it didn't work (Leading Teams same as Geelong).

Glad you brought that up.

Let's put it this way... So often, it can and does come down to the skills of the individual facilitator. We didn't get the cat who worked with the PussyCats. Plenty of 360 degree programs about, but, like so many things in life... it comes down to the actual person delivering the program - shouldn't be like that, but it is a reality. Some folks have a natural talent for delivering such programs/strategies... some go by the rule book. I know who I'd rather. Plus...

...these programs are constantly evolving to suit the changing times... a lot of programs stick with the tried and true (as they see it) and fail to adapt and change to the altering, and often very individual needs, of the client(s). The approach used with the Tiggers was quite different to the PussyCats, yet there were some similar principles involved. The Tiggers included some stuff from Brene Brown, and others, which was brilliantly suited to their circumstances.

So... 360 feedback programs differ, and there aint a 'one size fits all' to suit every client(s). To be done properly, so much analysis needs be done before hand... matching needs to which program(s) suit best. To employ a program simply because it worked for xyz is just plain lazy.

[LP]

To employ a program simply because it worked for xyz is just plain lazy.

Yes, it's just more of that sheep like behaviour we see from AFL coaches and clubs I written about before.

If you can unequivocally see your club copying some other successful club, .................. sack the lot of them because they are formulaic morons!

The biggest positive move Dimma ever made was identifying and sacking a bunch of the micro-managing coaches, then putting the players led by Cotchin in charge of their own fate. Now he has a team that mostly coaches itself, which is a nightmare for most oppositions, and even worse this year now that runners have been limited.

When we see our players run into dead ends, freeze like rabbits in the headlights, and drop their heads instantly, that I believe is a sign of over-coaching, not necessarily by the head coach. It is not natural for any kid who makes it to AFL to be a quitter or to look defeated on the playing field.

[Gointocarlton]

Glad you brought that up.

Let's put it this way... So often, it can and does come down to the skills of the individual facilitator. We didn't get the cat who worked with the PussyCats. Plenty of 360 degree programs about, but, like so many things in life... it comes down to the actual person delivering the program - shouldn't be like that, but it is a reality. Some folks have a natural talent for delivering such programs/strategies... some go by the rule book. I know who I'd rather. Plus...

...these programs are constantly evolving to suit the changing times... a lot of programs stick with the tried and true (as they see it) and fail to adapt and change to the altering, and often very individual needs, of the client(s). The approach used with the Tiggers was quite different to the PussyCats, yet there were some similar principles involved. The Tiggers included some stuff from Brene Brown, and others, which was brilliantly suited to their circumstances.

So... 360 feedback programs differ, and there aint a 'one size fits all' to suit every client(s). To be done properly, so much analysis needs be done before hand... matching needs to which program(s) suit best. To employ a program simply because it worked for xyz is just plain lazy.

IIRC, it was one of the founders of Leading Teams that did ours.

[Gointocarlton]

Yes, it's just more of that sheep like behaviour we see from AFL coaches and clubs I written about before.

If you can unequivocally see your club copying some other successful club, .................. sack the lot of them because they are formulaic morons!

The biggest positive move Dimma ever made was identifying and sacking a bunch of the micro-managing coaches, then putting the players led by Cotchin in charge of their own fate. Now he has a team that mostly coaches itself, which is a nightmare for most oppositions, and even worse this year now that runners have been limited.

When we see our players run into dead ends, freeze like rabbits in the headlights, and drop their heads instantly, that I believe is a sign of over-coaching, not necessarily by the head coach. It is not natural for any kid who makes it to AFL to be a quitter or to look defeated on the playing field.

I was sure I read that Dimma himself was the micro manager and had to let go of a lot of things and hand it over to the assistants.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Yes, it's just more of that sheep like behaviour we see from AFL coaches and clubs I written about before.

If you can unequivocally see your club copying some other successful club, .................. sack the lot of them because they are formulaic morons!

The biggest positive move Dimma ever made was identifying and sacking a bunch of the micro-managing coaches, then putting the players led by Cotchin in charge of their own fate. Now he has a team that mostly coaches itself, which is a nightmare for most oppositions, and even worse this year now that runners have been limited.

When we see our players run into dead ends, freeze like rabbits in the headlights, and drop their heads instantly, that I believe is a sign of over-coaching, not necessarily by the head coach. It is not natural for any kid who makes it to AFL to be a quitter or to look defeated on the playing field.

Some good points LP, our young players sometimes look like Robots who have been over coached.
Maybe the Bolton years of Green shoots/development failed to teach our kids about winning and how you have to fight to win and never quit. It was always about development and even Bolton in his darkest days refused to acknowledge winning was important until right at the end when it was too late. It can be hard to re program kids and you need a very strong personality coaching your club to do that IMO.

[Baggers]

IIRC, it was one of the founders of Leading Teams that did ours.

As I mentioned, even if you have a competent facilitator, have you done your analysis re the fit of your program to the needs of your client? Does your program need change?

Two factors at play (as I wrote of - facilitation person & program adaption to the client needs) and one without the other invites the very real risk of failure of the program. Did the client implement your program thoroughly? Did you get buy-in from the top and all stakeholders?

Too many folks think that the implementation of a program is all they need do - magic bullet thinking, even Saviour thinking... sound familiar? What about fit? What about buy in from the client at all levels? What about follow-up? What about willingness to implement? Did the client 'do the work/really commit?'

As I mentioned, for these programs to work effectively, so much analysis needs be done before, during and after. As for why it didn't work for us (and others) you'd need to look at all of the above... and more. Personally, I've had to 'clean up' after an unsuccessful 360 program (not Leading Teams) on more than one occasion.

[capcom]

It was always about development and even Bolton in his darkest days refused to acknowledge winning was important until right at the end when it was too late.

Let's face it, Bolton had no idea.  Disastrous appointment.

[LP]

I was sure I read that Dimma himself was the micro manager and had to let go of a lot of things and hand it over to the assistants.

Partly correct, he and his assistants were micro-managers, but he didn't hand control over to assistants, he handed more of it over to the players.

If he's telling people otherwise, it's a misdirection.

In modern football the game pattern changes too quickly and too dramatically to be waiting for a message from some observer on the 3rd floor to react!

Coaches do their work pre-match, they have feck all influence on game day, if they look out coached on game day it's because they got the days and weeks before the game wrong.

[kruddler]

As I mentioned, even if you have a competent facilitator, have you done your analysis re the fit of your program to the needs of your client? Does your program need change?

Two factors at play (as I wrote of - facilitation person & program adaption to the client needs) and one without the other invites the very real risk of failure of the program. Did the client implement your program thoroughly? Did you get buy-in from the top and all stakeholders?

Too many folks think that the implementation of a program is all they need do - magic bullet thinking, even Saviour thinking... sound familiar? What about fit? What about buy in from the client at all levels? What about follow-up? What about willingness to implement? Did the client 'do the work/really commit?'

As I mentioned, for these programs to work effectively, so much analysis needs be done before, during and after. As for why it didn't work for us (and others) you'd need to look at all of the above... and more. Personally, I've had to 'clean up' after an unsuccessful 360 program (not Leading Teams) on more than one occasion.

Curious.

When was the last time one of these things actually worked in the AFL?

It was all the rage 10-15 years ago.....but the standard line of thinking nowadays is its outdated.

You stated Tigers have done it, not sure when or how often, but the implication would be it was before they started winning flags which would make it 1 team in the past 5 years that it has worked for.

We've seen Adelaide try something, clearly did more damage. Not necessarily the same thing, but it does highlight that kids nowadays are all snowflakes and are less likely to respond to this sort of thing.

Majority of coaches (if not all) nowadays are more like psychologists rather than drill sergeants.  Gone is the ranting and raving, instead replaced by calm, logic and reason. Teague fits that bill despite some pining for the alternative.