Sam Newman at it again!

[LP]

I've never heard anyone complain about the endless and thoroughly boring speeches, thanking of sponsors (in itself a heavily political act) etc. that accompany some games like the Grand Final, yet any hint of a Welcome To Country or similar, and all hell breaks loose.

When you take your argument to such an extreme you diminish the cause and that seems to be the very issue causing some people angst or trepidation.

I've mentioned this before on many issues not just this, extremism on any side of the debate divides never unifies. I would think the main way forward on this issue is to unify, and I'm not sure how subjecting football fans to what now seems to be a politicised event helps that resolve.

Have the debate all you like in the appropriate forum, don't lecture fans on their day off in a captive space. It would be as divisive as taking this debate into the pre-game thread.

Participants can ignore the way the wind blows on this issue, or they can keep screaming into it for all their worth, but that won't stop it and it may even make it worse! I note our notable AFL apparatchik Waleed Aly seems to have arrived at the very same conclusion, my surprise is how the "academics" ever thought this behaviour could end any other way.

You can't be told how to vote, that is entrenched in democracy, you can only be asked for support!

[PaulP]

When you take your argument to such an extreme you diminish the cause and that seems to be the very issue causing some people angst or trepidation.

I've mentioned this before on many issues not just this, extremism on any side of the debate divides never unifies. I would think the main way forward on this issue is to unify, and I'm not sure how subjecting football fans to what now seems to be a politicised event helps that resolve.

Have the debate all you like in the appropriate forum, don't lecture fans on their day off in a captive space. It would be as divisive as taking this debate into the pre-game thread.

Participants can ignore the way the wind blows on this issue, or they can keep screaming into it for all their worth, but that won't stop it and it may even make it worse! I note our notable AFL apparatchik Waleed Aly seems to have arrived at the very same conclusion, my surprise is how the "academics" ever thought this behaviour could end any other way.

You can't be told how to vote, that is entrenched in democracy, you can only be asked for support!

So you think that a Welcome To Country Ceremony at a football match is :

a. en extremist position, and
b. a lecture about how to vote, think etc.

Right.

[LP]

So you think that a Welcome To Country Ceremony at a football match is :

a. en extremist position.

No, but your assertion that the AFL games are full of endless boring speeches thanking sponsors is, those speeches basically happen once a season after the Grand Final, once a season as does the Catafalque ceremony, the Welcome to Country can probably be once a season too!

I can see you are emotionally connected to this issue, so you want to paint a picture conflating several issues into a single debate, that is the very divisive nature of this debate that I'm referring to. This isn't the US Senate, our issues do not come with riders.

Here we can openly discuss more than one issue in parallel, without the need to build dependency.

I don't feel I need to wear a cilice to make amends for things that happened generations ago, I don't have to punish myself or those around me as we are generations removed, more generations than can even be connected genetically. I have no gnashing or grinding of teeth, I can respect listen to and see people without needing to offer some compensation or be compensated.

As for the politics and the dollars, I would think it's a privilege to be offered to address the AFL crowds, such a forum is not available to most, it's not a paid public service.

[PaulP]

No, but your assertion that the AFL games are full of endless boring speeches thanking sponsors is, those speeches basically happen once a season after the Grand Final, once a season as does the Catafalque ceremony, the Welcome to Country can probably be once a season too!

I can see you are emotionally connected to this issue, so you want to paint a picture conflating several issues into a single debate, that is the very divisive nature of this debate that I'm referring to. This isn't the US Senate, our issues do not come with riders.

Here we can openly discuss more than one issue in parallel, without the need to build dependency.

I don't feel I need to wear a cilice to make amends for things that happened generations ago, I don't have to punish myself or those around me as we are generations removed, more generations than can even be connected genetically. I have no gnashing or grinding of teeth, I can respect listen to and see people without needing to offer some compensation or be compensated.

As for the politics and the dollars, I would think it's a privilege to be offered to address the AFL crowds, such a forum is not available to most, it's not a paid public service.

And why exactly is sitting through a few minutes of a Welcome To Country any kind of punishment ?

How do you think oppressed groups in the past (women, African Americans, First Nations people) have made any kind of progress ? Do you think they just waited politely and patiently for the ruling classes to wake up ? Or do you think that any improvements are the result of decades of action by said groups, some of it bloody, some of it ugly, much of it painful and fruitless. The ruling classes don't make changes until they are made to. This has nothing to do with emotion, and everything to do with historical fact.

And where exactly is the "appropriate forum" for these types of discussions ? The footnotes of the Hansard ? The graveyard shift of some community radio station with 3 listeners ?

[ElwoodBlues1]

Does the referendum question and the proposed wording still not put all the power for the composition on the Parliament.

https://voice.gov.au/resources/fact-shee...-amendment

It does and it's been made clear in the media etc to that effect as well but will the voice panel operate under those conditions because it appears toothless at the minute and could be accused of being a token setup with little value going forward and why there doesn't seem to be uniform agreement amongst all first nations people including politicians.

[LP]

And where exactly is the "appropriate forum" for these types of discussions ? The footnotes of the Hansard ? The graveyard shift of some community radio station with 3 listeners ?

In the newspapers, on social media, yes in talkback radio and on current affairs television, like ever other major issue!

Extremes. I don't see victims of the numerous other crimes being offered a fee to relate their stories and thank the crowds for their support at AFL games. Carlton Respects is one game a year, is that somehow less of an issue, why not every pre-game? The Jane McGrath Foundation gets one cricket match a year, is breast cancer less important than a Welcome to Country. Why, are women too numerous and therefore fail minority status?

If you want to take this debate to extremes [member=64]PaulP[/member] , I doubt you be able to restrict the frame of reference to fat white fellas!

[mateinone]

People are free to feel whatever they want about such ceremonies.
To actively advocate the booing is taking it to the extreme...and a recipe for some ugly scenes on a day that should be a celebration for all of us.

agree!!  Personally i do not actually like the welcome before games and find it ridiculous, but the booing is an atrocious idea.
I do believe though that Sam is well within his rights to express his opinion and in fact it is important for people to fight for his right to that and they should argue against his opinions and not demonize his for his opinions.

The wokeness is completely ruining society and we are already in danger of losing free speech and giving way to "freedom to express the same thoughts as our own".

Don't like what Sam is advocating, but i like he is prepared to speak his mind, knowing he will be vilified.

Society should always fight for right for people to be able to express an opinion we disagree with.

[PaulP]

In the newspapers, on social media, yes in talkback radio and on current affairs television, like ever other major issue!

Extremes. I don't see victims of the numerous other crimes being offered a fee to relate their stories and thank the crowds for their support at AFL games. Carlton Respects is one game a year, is that somehow less of an issue, why not every pre-game? The Jane McGrath Foundation gets one cricket match a year, is breast cancer less important than a Welcome to Country. Why, are women too numerous and therefore fail minority status?

If you want to take this debate to extremes [member=64]PaulP[/member] , I doubt you be able to restrict the frame of reference to fat white fellas!

Doing a comparison between this or that charity or this or that issue is not relevant. The relevant issues are simply whether the Voice / Welcome To Country ceremony etc. are worthy of sustained, critical discussion, and worthy of a seat on the National stage ? That is all.

And if you think you are actually going to have good / productive discussions on social media or talkback radio, well, I'm flummoxed that you could think that. Have you seen how major issues have been discussed in the past on these mediums ? Surely you can't be serious ?

[PaulP]

........................

Don't like what Sam is advocating, but i like he is prepared to speak his mind, knowing he will be vilified..............

Sam Newman. So brave, so tough, so courageous. A real martyr for free speech. Please.

[LP]

And if you think you are actually going to have good / productive discussions on social media or talkback radio, well, I'm flummoxed that you could think that. Have you seen how major issues have been discussed in the past on these mediums ? Surely you can't be serious ?

[member=64]PaulP[/member] are you somehow suggesting the bars in The MCG or Marvel, and the surrounding pubs and cafes are better venues?

I suspect, those pubs and bars are more likely to elicit a response closer to Newman's provocative preference!

If you are worried about the quality of news coverage, then I'd suggest The MCG crowd is the exact wrong place to take that debate.