Russian Ukraine War

[mateinone]

Propaganda in Russia is a strong weapon and because it is so successful in Russia,  not all youth are against Putin and the war. It is true the biggest group of detractors are the young, but there are plenty of young who support it as well. Even some very educated Russians I know truly believe (for example) that Poland owes Russia/USSR a debt of gratitude for World War II, which of course is insane. They think this, because they are told from the time they are in school that this is the case and that Poles are russophobes for having any ill feeling or mistrust towards Moscow.

The older generation (even 30+) strongly believe what they watch on tv and those in the 35-50 year age bracket in particular would be some of the most vociferous in their support of Putin and everything Russia 1 news tells them. This is because they genuinely believe that Russia would have disintegrated after the mayhem of the 90s if Putin didn't take over. Of course this ignores the fact that Putin was absolutely criminal in his dealings when working in St Petersburg post communism and strongly contributed to the troubles everyday Russians experienced. They only look at the 1991-1999 period as a horror period that improved once Putin took the helm.

So you see that progression, then everyday for 21 years there has been a tightening on what is reported as Putin builds a cult of personality culture. The internet is almost irrelevant for most Russians, even a large percentage of those that do not believe what is on the tv, still believe the internet if full of western lies aimed to tear the superpower Russia down.

[mateinone]

Belarus is a puppet state of Russia, Lukashenko is a lap dog of Putin

As was Ukraine with Yanukovych in control. Unfortunately Ukraine/Belarus and Russia are/were all plutocracies with full blown corruption to a level that is almost impossible to fathom. The powers in Moscow would have been receiving huge kickbacks from the corruption in Kiev and there is little doubt in my mind that is one of the biggest reasons (as well as Putin's desire to build his legacy) for this invasion, as well as the invasion of Crimea and the Luhansk and Donetsk regions in 2014 after the revolution. The revolution would have cost Moscow billions.

Russia would love to either take all of Ukraine back or install another puppet government back in control to keep their coffers kicking over.

[ElwoodBlues1]

As was Ukraine with Yanukovych in control. Unfortunately Ukraine/Belarus and Russia are/were all plutocracies with full blown corruption to a level that is almost impossible to fathom. The powers in Moscow would have been receiving huge kickbacks from the corruption in Kiev and there is little doubt in my mind that is one of the biggest reasons (as well as Putin's desire to build his legacy) for this invasion, as well as the invasion of Crimea and the Luhansk and Donetsk regions in 2014 after the revolution. The revolution would have cost Moscow billions.

Russia would love to either take all of Ukraine back or install another puppet government back in control to keep their coffers kicking over.

Ukraine are big into exporting Agriculture products, they are a major supplier in the world for a few products in some cases and its worth a lot of money.
Putin though wants more than that and he wants to be a war hero like Stalin or a big name winner like Brezhnev who presided over Cold war Russia which is an era Putin admired. Ukraine has the export resources appeal for the money but also had the advantage of being a non NATO country which made it appear a safer easier target on paper.

[mateinone]

Ukraine are big into exporting Agriculture products, they are a major supplier in the world for a few products in some cases and its worth a lot of money.
Putin though wants more than that and he wants to be a war hero like Stalin or a big name winner like Brezhnev who presided over Cold war Russia which is an era Putin admired. Ukraine has the export resources appeal for the money but also had the advantage of being a non NATO country which made it appear a safer easier target on paper.

I agree that there is a legacy part to this invasion and it is a significant part. Russia's greatest ever hero is Peter the Great, Putin references his often and he is universally admired within Russia. There is absolutely no doubt at all that his aim is to be seen in the same light as Peter. Though it would be interesting if he was ever given the title of "great" as Russia already has a Vladimir the Great. It is important though to not discount the money element as it is also extremely significant, whilst average Russians, Ukrainians and Belorussians live poorly, the elite live incredible lives and their wealth is absolutely staggering, there are kickbacks at every single level of government and this needs to be paid for, so money they were bringing in from Ukraine was extremely significant in my opinion

[Thryleon]

If there is one thing I've learned over the years its dont believe everything you read online.  Its pretty hard to blame anyone for believing the internet is full of lies.  During the pandemic alone if you read everything with healthy skepticism, chances are you listened to what you heard on television as priority and that was better information.

[Thryleon]

That being said back to the war for a moment.  I believe it's easy for the Russian people to get behind the war in Ukraine because they will feel its their own land been taken off them since whenever.  I state this because I know of people who would be of the same opinion pretty much in a half a dozen countries with a portion who might consider themselves an independent nation.  It would be viewed the same globally, taking back whats rightfully theirs, irrespective of what the rest of the world thinks about it.  When you recognise this factor its easier to understand why this happens.  That doesn't make it right either.  These mentalities are not about right or wrong.  National identity.  Etc.  They are very much an opinion.  China and Taiwan is the same.  An opinion that one nation is separate to the other.  The fact the world recognises it is largely political and a collection of opinions designed to favour an outcome that isn't always clear to the rest of us.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Ukraine war was sold to the Russian people as Putin coming to the aid of ethnic/pro Russian folk in the border regions who he said were being poorly treated and he was going to their rescue.
Hitler used the same marketing 101 tactics when he invaded Poland and that he was looking after/saving ethnic Germans who were being oppressed..

[Thryleon]

Ukraine war was sold to the Russian people as Putin coming to the aid of ethnic/pro Russian folk in the border regions who he said were being poorly treated and he was going to their rescue.
Hitler used the same marketing 101 tactics when he invaded Poland and that he was looking after/saving ethnic Germans who were being oppressed..

These all run into a deeper level of ethnic pride and is easy for a nation to get behind until it turns out to be a strategic loser. 

Be it Greece marching onto izmir post world war 1, or if Catalonia broke away from Spain and was then invaded by Spain, there would be enough proponents of ethnic pride that would easily sway the people.

Personally im convinced that just like all these other wars in the region like Syria, Libya etc, where we find out later that the strategic planning of Ukraine's defense and counter offensive has been conducted by third parties and that this has been a war by proxy of other nations and their interests in ensuring Ukraine doesn't slip into Russian hands.  Why is not really a questionfor me, as I dont really have a vested interest.

I'm more curious about what this all means for the future of the region.  I stopped looking at these conflicts in isolation a long time ago because they seem to raise and re raise their heads over and over again and are invariably history repeating.

[mateinone]

That being said back to the war for a moment.  I believe it's easy for the Russian people to get behind the war in Ukraine because they will feel its their own land been taken off them since whenever.  I state this because I know of people who would be of the same opinion pretty much in a half a dozen countries with a portion who might consider themselves an independent nation.  It would be viewed the same globally, taking back whats rightfully theirs, irrespective of what the rest of the world thinks about it.  When you recognise this factor its easier to understand why this happens.  That doesn't make it right either.  These mentalities are not about right or wrong.  National identity.  Etc.  They are very much an opinion.  China and Taiwan is the same.  An opinion that one nation is separate to the other.  The fact the world recognises it is largely political and a collection of opinions designed to favour an outcome that isn't always clear to the rest of us.

You are correct that a lot of people consider Ukraine to be Russian land and if you go back to the origins of Russia, Kiev was the 2nd capital (after Novgorod, which was the original capital of Rurik). Of course the Kievan Rus was in fact a different country from what Russia is now and there was no Moscow, but then the 3rd capital of the Kievan Rus was in modern day Romania.
The thing with Russia is, if there is a land they have ever conquered they consider it theirs in perpetuity and it is sold to them that this was stolen from them. Many Russians don't consider that Latvia, Lithuania or Estonia have a right to independence and Russia was robbed of these territories when Gorbachev betrayed the nation. Of course this is all ridiculous, because if they want to go through historical ownership of lands, then all of Eastern Russia should be handed back to the locals such as Dagestan, Circassia, Chechnya etc and of course Kalingrad should not be Russian either.
It really is a completely dystopian world in Russia and yes you are right it is very easy for Russians to get behind whatever the Government tells them, especially when the "scholar" Putin publishes articles such as this
http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

Of course it is a distortion of facts and incomplete, but to the average Russian this is a faithful and complete retelling of history.

[mateinone]

Ukraine war was sold to the Russian people as Putin coming to the aid of ethnic/pro Russian folk in the border regions who he said were being poorly treated and he was going to their rescue.
Hitler used the same marketing 101 tactics when he invaded Poland and that he was looking after/saving ethnic Germans who were being oppressed..

Of course he used the same playbook in Sutendland in Czechoslovakia. In Czech these were Austro-Hungarian lands with a large portion in the border regions that spoke German and it was these German speaking people that Hitler wanted to "rescue". Putin of course told lies that Russians could not speak Russian in Ukraine, they were being beaten and murdered just for the use of this language. It is true of course that there was in some areas conflicts over the use of Russian, but it was blown completely out of proportion as is the way with propaganda. It helped the Russian cause as well that Ukraine passed a series of laws that allowed Russia to seize on this "russophobia", I think in hindsight a number of these laws were not very well thought out.

But like all things it is a convenient half truth as Russia has suppressed many languages and cultures over time, including Ukrainians who had their language banned a number of times when under the control of the Russian Empire and again during the USSR. They also suppressed Jews and the Hebrew language, the Tartars, the Caucasians etc etc. Now of course the average Russian knows very little about any of this, because it is not taught in history in the schools, the only thing talked about is the russophobia and how disgusting it is when a culture (change to The Russian Culture) is suppressed.