The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

[Thryleon]

Im yet to be convinced that gas doesnt have the best footprint of them all carbon wise.

[kruddler]

Im yet to be convinced that gas doesnt have the best footprint of them all carbon wise.

Taking excavation and transportation into account??

[Thryleon]

Taking excavation and transportation into account??

yep

[LP]

I just sat through a panel discussion on the future of batteries as a limiting factor for the uptake of SolarPV, Wind and other "green energy" solutions. The panel was convened after one group correctly identified the growing threat to funding of renewables due to stalled progress on the battery front, primarily with increased interest in nuclear as a low / no carbon alternative, the writing must be on the wall surrounding some renewable and battery credentials if these groups are starting to talk about "the issues".

I was hoping to hear some discussions of innovations, instead I was shocked at the solution offered, it wasn't some new silicon or iron based battery, no far from it, they ignored many new technologies and went straight to the tried and true, pumped hydro!

The irony that these people would suddenly identify pumped hydro as a green energy solution, they even rephrased it as a "Water Battery!"

For years the very same SolarPV and Wind power groups have been telling us how evil hydro is, methane emission, environmental vandalism, loss of habitat, flooding, etc., etc., and yet the moment they feel renewable funding is being threatened by growing interest in base load alternatives they offer pumped hydro as "the battery solution" for renewables.

These people can't possible lay straight in bed, they must sleep all forked up, the whole event just exposes their true focus which is dollars not the environment!

[LP]

Here is one of the stories that really highlights the folly of some of the renewables being pushed.

The Port of Dover in the UK has set 2030 as the cut-off date to go completely electric, that means the Port, Ships and Ferries being serviced must be 100% electric by 2030. Seems reasonable, they already have two of the nine vessels as hybrids.

But wait, the devil is in the details.

The hybrids can only sail on electric for 40 minutes, and every minute of sailing is a minute of recharge time. The ships carry and consume 1.4MW of battery power to sail for 40 minutes. The rest of the journey generators on board kick in to supply electricity and recharge the batteries. Seems reasonable, at least the Ports are pollution free.

The vast bulk of the power consumed is for the ships, how much power is that, well just for the single Port of Dover each day they'll need about 180MW of ship energy, the Port itself can be regarded as negligible. And Dover is one of only three ports in the circuit servicing the UK and France (Dover, Calais and Dunkirk), each port needs the same 180MW per day, 560MW in total.

Per port that is about 1/3 of a medium to large scale coal fired power station, 50% of a 1GW power station in total, about a 1/4 of Victoria's Loy Yang A six(6) power unit solution just for those ports!

For reference, we closed the Alcoa smelters in Portland as being uneconomical, they consumed about 300MW and supplied a portion of their own power requirement.

180MW also happens to be about 3 to 4 times the total capacity of the supply lines coming into the Port of Dover in total! :o

Who justifies these numbers, what reality do they live in, are they thinking Wind and SolarPV for Zero Carbon? I ran the numbers and to power those Ports by SolarPV would require the SolarPV farm to cover an area of about 50km² (For comparison Melbourne CBD is 6.5km² ), so nearly eight Melbourne CBDs!

If you think that's a tough ask, now imagine the size of the recharging plug, and you think I'm joking! :o

Finally, think about a Port like Singapore, or even our lowly Port of Melbourne, many tens or even hundreds of times larger than the Dover terminal and powering much much bigger ships on much much longer journeys!

Before long we will be spitting out nuclear facilities like a Pez dispenser, it's inevitable.

PS: Coincidentally, I just found out 560MW powers about 330,000 homes, roughly the size of the current Victorian blackout!

[Thryleon]

So I put down a deposit on a car yesterday.

I've gone conventional ICE. 

will likely be the last one we buy, but I read the room.  My 16 year old mondeo replaced for a vw arteon.  Was one of about 3 cars I could find in that size, shape with that sort of liftback that I actually liked.

I'm told it's the last one that dealer will sell.

The alternatives were all SUV or a lot smaller or much more expensive or similar priced and EV.  no solar at home made the choice easier as it meant charging on the grid or adding 20 grand to the cost of the car.

The mrs car is an SUV and we didn't want another. we'll probably know a lot more about cars and EVs vs hydrogen when it's time to replace her 2017 xtrail.

Hopefully that's minimum 7 years away and they can make newer cars better.  At least we'll know if EV is the way to go by then (or we'll have minimal choice).

In this discussion I had a thought the other day.  First ev I could think of was a prius.  You would think Toyota would have been at the forefront of EV given that factor.  Why did they elect to dump it?  Only answer I can come up with is the numbers dont work.

[ElwoodBlues1]

So I put down a deposit on a car yesterday.

I've gone conventional ICE. 

will likely be the last one we buy, but I read the room.  My 16 year old mondeo replaced for a vw arteon.  Was one of about 3 cars I could find in that size, shape with that sort of liftback that I actually liked.

I'm told it's the last one that dealer will sell.

The alternatives were all SUV or a lot smaller or much more expensive or similar priced and EV.  no solar at home made the choice easier as it meant charging on the grid or adding 20 grand to the cost of the car.

The mrs car is an SUV and we didn't want another. we'll probably know a lot more about cars and EVs vs hydrogen when it's time to replace her 2017 xtrail.

Hopefully that's minimum 7 years away and they can make newer cars better.  At least we'll know if EV is the way to go by then (or we'll have minimal choice).

In this discussion I had a thought the other day.  First ev I could think of was a prius.  You would think Toyota would have been at the forefront of EV given that factor.  Why did they elect to dump it?  Only answer I can come up with is the numbers dont work.

Punters are sticking on the fence and buying hybrids...SUVs are just jacked up cars usually on the same platforms. They have the same engines, use more fuel and are 25-30% dearer than a normal car but are seen as safer being higher on the road and have been a marketing dream for car
companies who are cashing in.
Toyota have moved away from EVs because they can't compete with the Chinese who dominate in that area, hence the love for Hydrogen..got nothing to do with the environment, saving the planet etc but all to do with money and having market share.Had a ride in my relations Haval Jolion recently and was pleasantly surprised, I'm no fan of Chinese manufactured items but the car was comfortable, ran well and the dual clutch auto meshed well with hybrid setup.
Can see why people are buying them and why you see dealerships everywhere.
They will dominate the Aus motor scene and it will be interesting to see how Toyota responds with both pricing, supply and quality of new vehicles.

[cookie2]

Saw a Chinese Tank 4wd in a local carpark the other day. On just a cursory look over it I was too pleasantly surprised and formed a reasonably positive first impression.  Not sure how they drive etc.

[LP]

Toyota have moved away from EVs because they can't compete with the Chinese who dominate in that area, hence the love for Hydrogen..got nothing to do with the environment, saving the planet etc but all to do with money and having market share.

The main reason why companies like Toyota and Mercedes and BMW are looking towards EV alternatives is that the resource numbers do not stack up.

The Green economy pushes more and more EVs, Wind and Solar, but to achieve the equivalent of the current energy / transport system we have to increase the mining of copper, lithium and other rare earth elements more than tenfold. It's the elephant in the room nobody is talking about, and ultimately it will be why countries go nuclear to take advantage of existing infrastructure without requiring more copper resource.

A traditional ICE car uses at least 23kg of copper, an EV uses at least 80kg of copper. EVs are currently less than 10% of global vehicles yet they already consume as much as 30% of the available transport copper resource. So to get to anywhere near 100% of global vehicles requires a 300% increase in copper resources just for transport.

Renewables energy sectors are still a minority of global energy, but already the single biggest consumer of copper, already using about 3x more copper than the transport sector. That is just the renewable part, not including infrastructure like the grid.

I read estimates that for renewable SolarPV, Wind and EV to replace existing solutions will require between 500% and 1200% more copper mining globally. That assumes they can find that much resource, at the moment it doesn't exist.

Ultimately, the thing that might force societies hand, could well be kilograms of copper per kilowatt hour.

The USA just uncovered the world's biggest lithium resource, unfortunately it sits in deep salt brines under California's already limited water supply. But even as the world's single biggest resource it only covers about 45% of what the US predicts it will need, so the search goes on. Who and how they will mine that is whole other question, environmental groups are already protesting and it hasn't even started! Yet the same protesting groups demand we close coal and convert to SolarPV, they are obviously deliberately ambivalent to the reality of the limited resource situation, what they demand is a fantasy.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Saw a Chinese Tank 4wd in a local carpark the other day. On just a cursory look over it I was too pleasantly surprised and formed a reasonably positive first impression.  Not sure how they drive etc.

The Tank is a bit of an exploration from GWM into the realm of Landcruiser territory but from what I read has ABS/front suspension issues which causes the vehicle to dip down at the front under heavy braking and the rear wheels lift up off the ground...wouldnt want to be towing anything when that happens ?