General Discussions

[DJC]

Apart from the quotes by Ian Roberts, that ABC article sounds like a bit of PR happy talk. Everybody's very respectful of each other, which is clearly better than starting a war of words, exchanging hostilities etc., but there's nothing in that article that suggests a solution, for a jersey that supposedly wasn't just about LGBT people, but all marginalized groups. The players may not have bad intentions, but consequences matter a whole lot more IMO.

It's not the Pasifika players' intentions that are at fault Paul.  It's Manly's failure to see that the "pride jersey" could be problematic for a significant part of its playing group, particularly when one of their own, in Roberts, may have brought them along.  Consulting their playing group and, hopefully, raising their awareness of  LGBTQ+ issues should have been the first step.  Now, what was an important initiative has, at best, raised awareness of impact of Christianity on Indigenous peoples.  At worst, it's further marginalised LGBTQ+ and Pasifika folk. 

I should add that Muslim proselytisers have had a similarly deleterious impact on Melanesian communities.

[PaulP]

It's not the Pasifika players' intentions that are at fault Paul.  It's Manly's failure to see that the "pride jersey" could be problematic for a significant part of its playing group, particularly when one of their own, in Roberts, may have brought them along.  Consulting their playing group and, hopefully, raising their awareness of  LGBTQ+ issues should have been the first step.  Now, what was an important initiative has, at best, raised awareness of impact of Christianity on Indigenous peoples.  At worst, it's further marginalised LGBTQ+ and Pasifika folk. 

I should add that Muslim proselytisers have had a similarly deleterious impact on Melanesian communities.

The hearts and minds of these players and others like them were set a long time ago, and whilst change is always possible, I'm not sure any kind of pre match consultation would have changed the outcome.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Because Jones and gays are in such a similar position? Jones leaned in to a conspiracy theory spread on social media and was unwilling to help protect his fellow players and the competition that was trying to find a way to continue in a pandemic. Maybe gays have just been falling into a conspiracy theory spread online, like a social contagion, which has led them to choose to become gay? Is that the idea? Because from where I sit gays were born that way rather than making a choice. Jones made a stupid choice and he doesn’t get to play the victim. Gays are just who they are and face discrimination for that simple fact. Apples and oranges.

Jones quit the AFL and did protect other players by not playing plus took a hit to his pocket, while I am vaccinated I dont think I am in a position to decide on Jones own health decisions being good or bad as I dont know his medical circumstances, and have no medical qualifications and you need to be careful making those judgments. Not sure how you have deduced he made his health decisions based on social media offerings either unless you have some exclusive knowledge.

[Thryleon]

We have descended into a whole realm of false equivalency to argue that if you don't agree with the status quo, you are a problem. 

The exact antithesis of respect and inclusivity that is being imposed.

The irony is not lost on me.

[Mav]

Yes, why can’t we respect and tolerate the right of one group to disrespect and be intolerant towards another group? As George Brandeis said, don’t we all have the right to be bigots? ?

[Mav]

Jones quit the AFL and did protect other players by not playing plus took a hit to his pocket, while I am vaccinated I dont think I am in a position to decide on Jones own health decisions being good or bad as I dont know his medical circumstances, and have no medical qualifications and you need to be careful making those judgments. Not sure how you have deduced he made his health decisions based on social media offerings either unless you have some exclusive knowledge.

And you’d do well not to suggest Jones might regard himself as a marginalised minority. For all we know he might well be aware that he behaved like a dick who doesn’t deserve respect. As he won’t talk about it, you have nothing to suggest otherwise.

[PaulP]

Yep, there are many twists and turns. But it’s amazing that there’s no point-blank declaration in the Bible that slavery is evil. As you noted, that gave slavers wiggle room in the US and England to continue their trade. Ironically, Texas is now banning any reference to slavery or racism in schools now as they might cause distress to white folk. Textbooks can’t refer to Africans being kidnapped by slavers for sale in the US - apparently, they’ll be referred to as involuntary relocations. I’d love to hear religious folk trying to explain away this peculiar shortcoming in the Bible, but only if I could shut them up after they flail away for a little while.

No, there isn't any point blank declaration to that effect, but in those times, it's just how it was. Those points you make about Texas indicate a much deeper problem than religion IMO. I suggest you'll be wasting your time trying to debate Christian apologists. They have no need to seek the truth - they've already found it.

Religious folk, like most groups, exist on a spectrum. Unfortunately the extremist shouters tend to get all the headlines, possibly because they say the more attention grabbing, outlandish things. There are many moderate and / or progressive Christians who don't follow the Bible literally, and who live with more modern values, and who use their faith as part of a personal spiritual journey, and as something that helps them through life. They don't deliberately or inadvertently weaponise their faith in ways that harm others.

[Thryleon]

Yes, why can’t we respect and tolerate the right of one group to disrespect and be intolerant towards another group? As George Brandeis said, don’t we all have the right to be bigots? ?

no, the respect is about the conversation.  If the majority don't believe as you do, you would to quote yourself create a labor camp of the unvaccinated and force them to be vaccinated Gains their will for the greater good.

Not dissimilar to the programs about "knocking the gay" out of people that were imposed many moons ago.

The world is a very different place today.  No one gets forced to do anything they don't want to, and this discussion about slavery is about as relevant as gay bashing is.

The only slaves I see are slaves to the wage.

[Mav]

I’m guessing you missed the whole human trafficking thing. And the actual gay bashing.

[ElwoodBlues1]

And you’d do well not to suggest Jones might regard himself as a marginalised minority. For all we know he might well be aware that he behaved like a dick who doesn’t deserve respect. As he won’t talk about it, you have nothing to suggest otherwise.

Glad to see you took my reply well and didnt come back with a hysterical outburst....moving on..... I raised the possibility that other minority groups might want their day in the sun too and I concluded where does it start and where does it end.
The AFL and Rugby League are each a business running a game of football matches, if you want to turn them into a community soap box for every cause or minority groups issues then you are going to get a variety of problems. You would be wearing a different jumper every week as there are many good causes to raise awareness for including Gay inclusiveness, Gender respect, mental health etc etc etc.........Jones and his vaccine stance was just an extreme example of how silly it could become . Are the Rugby League and AFL only going to sanction jumpers/causes that help their bottom line and avoid a club for example who wanted to make a stance against gambling/pokies?