General Discussions

[Mav]

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

Unfortunately, the right wingers are using the reverse logic to justify attacks on the LBQTI community in the US. They argue the greater percentage of people who self-identify as being queer than was the case in the ‘50s proves that a ‘social contagion’ is to blame. They argue that the antidote is to make life so tough for queer folk that everyone will resist “infection”. Any program that seeks to increase tolerance or address suicidality is therefore evil and needs to be ruthlessly opposed.

[LP]

In fairness to [member=105]Thryleon[/member]‍ , I thinks it's quite reasonable to ask a question about the relationship between sexuality and gender, posing the question does not have to be always viewed as a subversive act.

There is a distinct relationship drawn between sexuality and gender in the media and social media, but I can't say it actually exists in reality! In think for political purposes both sides of the debate tried hard to make the same link but with different conclusions.

I suspect it would be quite hard if not impossible to make a bullet proof argument that linked identity to sexuality, you could possibly easily establish a trend, but not a rule because there will always be an exception.

If that premise is true, do we have to make laws and rules, both legal and social, for every exception?

Science is not without it's controversies, and can be reported in a distorted manner to suit politics as we well know. In this gender case I can use the example of science's understanding of pain and love. The physical science will suggest the two are different sides of the same coin, that is the pain of losing a limb is a flipside of being in love, because it turns out losing a love exhibits the same physical effects as losing a limb. Bizarre as that may be. What does this have to do with gender identity and sexuality? Well, the hurt and pain of living in the wrong body exhibits the same physical effects as losing a limb or a loved one. Here is the contradiction, pain is being more and more treated as a mental health issue rather than a physical effect, they actually proved this can be treated like an emotional state. It's a bio-psycho-social effect. Yet even though the science now identifies the effects of pain and love as a mental health issue with mental health solutions rather than physical solutions, it will tell you gender identity / dysmorphia isn't a mental health issue but a real physical issue. That contradiction seems to be a political decision and not at all following the science, in fact the direction and conclusions of the two different solutions seems quite arbitrary!

This can be quite hard to accept, because we have to understand and accept that pain, love, emotions are synthetic, just like the way we perceive colours pain and love are a construction of our mind!

[Lods]

[member=105]Thryleon[/member]

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

This recent debate probably started from a discussion regarding the fairness of transgender athletes competing in women's competition.
So in respect of that it's probably the fact that there may possibly be a disadvantage to a section of society...the female opponent of the transgender athlete.

That's the dilemma....
Equality of opportunity for the trans athlete v fairness for their possible female opponents and integrity of records.

I'm beginning to feel a bit like Baggers
It's a can of worms.

And perhaps it’s to the credit of female former high-level athletes that they don’t use their highly-honed techniques to dominate masters events too. Masters footy isn’t dominated by ex-AFL stars mainly because they don’t play Masters footy. Libba does and he was dominating in the 35s category when he was over 50. Not only did his technique serve him well, he was fitter than his opponents as well.

It's interesting...and I can only speak in terms of Masters Track and Field.
While that's only a small section of the sporting landscape  it is relevant from the point of view that most competition involving transgender athletes will be at that lower than elite, or at a community level.

I'd personally would love the opportunity to compete against a Daley Thompson or Bruce Jenner in Masters competition through their 40s, 50s and 60s.
I'd like to know whether that age factor narrowed a considerable gap between us.

But it's a fact that not many elite athletes compete in their later years.
I suspect that has a bit to do with not continuing with the sacrifices to training and competition they made at their peak, but also it's a case of 'been there done that'.

I know through discussions with female Masters athletes they'd also like to compete against champions of the past
Here's the thing though....
I'm not sure those same  female athletes in the womens 70-75 division would share that enthusiasm if Jenner was in the start lists.

But here's another complicating factor to consider....
From my understanding Jenner has taken medication and had some facial surgery but retains her male bits.
There's a very good chance she wouldn't meet the requirements for competition as a female transgender athlete.

A lot of organisations are now producing rules and standards for transgender competition.
Here's the most recent one for Track and Field.

Definition of Transgender

The term ‘Transgender’ is used in these Regulations to refer to individuals whose gender identity (i.e. how they identify) is different from the sex designated to them at birth, whether they are pre- or post-puberty, and whether or not they have undergone any form of medical intervention.


Participation is encouraged with conditions

World Athletics recognises that Transgender athletes may wish to compete in Athletics in accordance with their gender identity. World Athletics wishes to encourage and facilitate such participation, on conditions that go only so far as is necessary to protect the safety of all participants and to deliver on the promise of fair and meaningful competition offered by the division of the sport into male and female categories of competition.



Conditions of participation

A Transgender athlete who wishes to participate in an International Competition, or to be eligible to set a World Record in a competition that is not an International Competition, agrees, as a condition to such participation:

· To comply in full with these Regulations

· To cooperate promptly and in good faith with the Medical Manager and the Expert Panel in the discharge of their respective responsibilities under these Regulations, including providing them with all of the information and evidence they request to assess his/her compliance and/or monitor his/her continuing compliance with the eligibility conditions referred to in these Regulations;



Procedure for applying for eligibility: male transgender athletes

· A transgender male athlete must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that his gender identity is male.

· As soon as reasonably practicable following receipt of such declaration, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the male category of competition in International Competition and to set a World Record in the male category in a competition that is not an International Competition.


Procedure for applying for eligibility: female transgender athletes

A transgender female athlete must meet the following to the satisfaction of an Expert Panel

· She must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that her gender identity is female

· Along with this she must provide a comprehensive medical history

The Medical Manager will refer the file (in anonymised form) to the Expert Panel for assessment

· She must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel (on the balance of probabilities) that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5 nmol/L3 continuously for a period of at least 12 months

· Also, she must keep her serum testosterone concentration below 5 nmol/L for

so long as she wishes to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category of competition.

If the Expert Panel decides that the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions have been met, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the female category of competition in International Competition (and to set a World Record in the female category in a competition that is not an International Competition).

That eligibility will be subject in every case to the athlete’s continuing satisfaction of the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions, including continuously maintaining her serum testosterone at a concentration of less than 5 nmol/L.



The following are NOT required:

· Legal recognition of the athlete’s gender identity as the athlete’s sex

· Surgical anatomical changes

Clearly, although they state they encourage participation, such rules would be quite restrictive and even prohibitive for the average community athlete to comply with and are designed for international competition.
But there is an acknowledgement that there is some point where a transgender female athlete does have an advantage over their opposition and must take steps to enable eligibility.
No such regulations apply to the male transgender athlete.

That's just a snapshot of one sport.
Translate that over numerous sports and you get a feeling of some of the hurdles for transgender participation.

Here's one article that's very thorough, a bit wordy but puts into perspective the problems with the debate as the author seems to wrestle with their own thoughts on the issue.

https://sportsscientists.com/2019/03/on-...dvantages/

[Thryleon]

[member=105]Thryleon[/member]
Firstly, the gay stuff.
I know where the term comes from, but that is irrelevant.
The fact it is so old is also irrelevant, however, something else that is 'old' is the native american gender definitions which we've talked about before.

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

Same logic to more trans people now.

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

2. https://www.healthline.com/health/alien-hand-syndrome
As suggested, its more about a wiring issue in the brain.
But they simply can't change the way they feel. You can't really comprehend how they feel. But they feel that way and it can't be changed.....unless.....something changes physically.

3. The difference is, as mentioned above, it doesn't hurt anyone. It is not against any rules/laws and it makes them feel better about themselves and live a better life.

4. Expand...

Sexuality and Gender are not same same but different.  More gay people won't spurn more gay people.  More people will be curious about it, maybe even give it a go, but sexuality is unique.  Pheromones make up a larger part of attraction and I think the right mix in the right person might attract you to someone of the same gender from time to time.  This is scientifically viewable.

Trans is a bit different.  You have avoided this part of the debate in a slippery manner with different analogies, but what can being male or female mean?  Is it behaviour?  Is it attire?  The point I am making isnt about the gender, its about the gender CONSTRUCT.  The role people believe a man or woman play and ergo, by extension question if they are that role.  Not that gender.  Identity is shaped by gender, not gender by identity.  ITS BACKWARDS THINKING.  How can i convey this message in any other way? 

Back to your analogy about the American Indian community.  From the same culture, The tale of the two wolves portrays the good and evil that lives within us, represented by the conscious and the unconscious desire of man. If we are unconscious of our thoughts, we are at the mercy of feeding the evil wolf. Our unconscious thoughts are the unresolved or repressed parts of our psyche.

Lets not make it good evil but its more about how you nurture your identity and the masculine and the feminine.  Sexuality is a much more biological process.  Not all women turn me on, but I am turned on by women.  I am fundamentally straight.  Feeding a gay component of my body will not limit my attraction to the women, but it may increase my ability to be turned on by men.  I am not gay, but I can appreciate a good looking rooster, and my thought is that he would do well with the ladies (or maybe even the men if so inclined). 

Trans on the other hand becomes a cycle of questioning ones self.  Feeding the wolf.  I am a woman in a mans body is repeated to the point that it is true.  Its programming, unless you belong to the very minute percentage born with some level of genetic ambiguity.  Its not honest to become a female if you arent one or vice versa.  Its actually a bit deceitful.

Not to mention, its actually not real based on my definition of Male: Human with male genitalia or Female:  Human with female genetalia.

What is it, about a trans person that makes them feel a different gender to their biology?  Ive asked this, I dont really get an answer, just what they feel makes them happy.  I feel happy when I buy new stuff, but that isnt the key to happiness.  When I am going through a tough time, I remember to be thankful for what I have acknowledging that I am quite fortunate for the things I have, and try to dismiss the things I don't.  THAT is the key to happiness.


With that point in mind, apply that to your question 4.  Be thankful for what you have.  Others would love to have your issues instead of their own.

2.  Read your link.  As I expected this is a completely no comparison.  The hand having a "mind of its own" isnt about getting it cut off at all, is sporadic, and amputation isnt given as a treatment option in your link.  It is effectively nuero diagnosed, and potentially treatable but in some cases where the neuro pathways are broken beyond repair, not the same thing. 

3.  Foot fetish.  The fact that you even state its a wiring issue in the brain, makes me state you already have your answer to this question.  You dont approve of that either.


Are you going to tell me, how these people somehow are granted the ability to find out how it feels to be a woman when they arent one or vice versa?

I can call you she, her, if you like, that still doesnt make you understand what menstruation or menopause feels like.

LODS has answered point 1 better than I can, but walking into a cubicle with a man dressed as a woman makes me feel a little uncomfortable, and I imagine females might feel the same.  Guess I am trans after all.... 

[LP]

It seems like "The Gold Standard" NSW has lost some of it's glitter!

Three days before the biggest flood in modern Australian history inundated the Northern Rivers, Lismore City Council was told by the NSW government that its concerns were “premature”. It was the first in a series of failures.

Just another sign of politics getting in the way of progress.

Water of course doesn't travel at the speed of light, it can't teleport instantly between open location and another, you can see it coming like a slow motion train wreck, except if you are a politician it seems! :

[kruddler]

Sexuality and Gender are not same same but different.  More gay people won't spurn more gay people.  More people will be curious about it, maybe even give it a go, but sexuality is unique.  Pheromones make up a larger part of attraction and I think the right mix in the right person might attract you to someone of the same gender from time to time.  This is scientifically viewable.

Trans is a bit different.  You have avoided this part of the debate in a slippery manner with different analogies, but what can being male or female mean?  Is it behaviour?  Is it attire?  The point I am making isnt about the gender, its about the gender CONSTRUCT.  The role people believe a man or woman play and ergo, by extension question if they are that role.  Not that gender.  Identity is shaped by gender, not gender by identity.  ITS BACKWARDS THINKING.  How can i convey this message in any other way? 

Back to your analogy about the American Indian community.  From the same culture, The tale of the two wolves portrays the good and evil that lives within us, represented by the conscious and the unconscious desire of man. If we are unconscious of our thoughts, we are at the mercy of feeding the evil wolf. Our unconscious thoughts are the unresolved or repressed parts of our psyche.

Lets not make it good evil but its more about how you nurture your identity and the masculine and the feminine.  Sexuality is a much more biological process.  Not all women turn me on, but I am turned on by women.  I am fundamentally straight.  Feeding a gay component of my body will not limit my attraction to the women, but it may increase my ability to be turned on by men.  I am not gay, but I can appreciate a good looking rooster, and my thought is that he would do well with the ladies (or maybe even the men if so inclined). 

Trans on the other hand becomes a cycle of questioning ones self.  Feeding the wolf.  I am a woman in a mans body is repeated to the point that it is true.  Its programming, unless you belong to the very minute percentage born with some level of genetic ambiguity.  Its not honest to become a female if you arent one or vice versa.  Its actually a bit deceitful.

Not to mention, its actually not real based on my definition of Male: Human with male genitalia or Female:  Human with female genetalia.

What is it, about a trans person that makes them feel a different gender to their biology?  Ive asked this, I dont really get an answer, just what they feel makes them happy.  I feel happy when I buy new stuff, but that isnt the key to happiness.  When I am going through a tough time, I remember to be thankful for what I have acknowledging that I am quite fortunate for the things I have, and try to dismiss the things I don't.  THAT is the key to happiness.


With that point in mind, apply that to your question 4.  Be thankful for what you have.  Others would love to have your issues instead of their own.

2.  Read your link.  As I expected this is a completely no comparison.  The hand having a "mind of its own" isnt about getting it cut off at all, is sporadic, and amputation isnt given as a treatment option in your link.  It is effectively nuero diagnosed, and potentially treatable but in some cases where the neuro pathways are broken beyond repair, not the same thing. 

3.  Foot fetish.  The fact that you even state its a wiring issue in the brain, makes me state you already have your answer to this question.  You dont approve of that either.


Are you going to tell me, how these people somehow are granted the ability to find out how it feels to be a woman when they arent one or vice versa?

I can call you she, her, if you like, that still doesnt make you understand what menstruation or menopause feels like.

LODS has answered point 1 better than I can, but walking into a cubicle with a man dressed as a woman makes me feel a little uncomfortable, and I imagine females might feel the same.  Guess I am trans after all.... 

My reasoning for bringing in 'gay' and alien limb/hand syndrome is this. Its a 'feeling' and one that you can't quite explain to someone who doesn't feel the same way. WHY are you attracted to females? WHY do you feel your hand is not your own?
Trying to explain WHY one person feels this or that is not easily done....and that extends to this debate.
FWIW, that link was just for an overview of the disease. Look into it further and you'll find as i described....happy people once their 'issue' is no longer there, ie amputated.

All of the above is down to your brain.....after all its responsible for all your feelings one way or another, so if there is something 'different' about people and how they feel, thats where you'll find it.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'not approving'.

So again, why does trans person FEEL the way they do? Why does anyone FEEL the way they do??
Trying to explain to a blind person the concept of red is impossible. Yet you know it, i know it and majority of people do.
There are some things that people simply cannot comprehend unless they experience it themselves.

Last question....
male = male bits
female = female bits

What about those that have both? Or parts of both? What are they??
Suddenly its not so black and white.

Look, i'm no expert in the manner and don't pretend to be.
Like you, i like analysing things and sorted through it all.

For me, there is very much a grey area between men and women, even in terms of non-traditional chromosome makeup (xx vs xy).

Do i think its simply fashionable to be trans? No.
Do i think its something that has only recently become a thing? No.
Do i think every person has legitimate claims and there are no people doing it for the wrong reasons? No.
Is it potentially a 'wiring issue' within the brain? Sure. Does that mean they feel it any less? No.
Phantom pain still hurts as much as actual pain, even if there is no legitimate reason behind it (or at least that we know of).

Simply, i don't know, but i give the benefit of the doubt based on what i do know.

[LP]

Have you ever heard of a gag of flags?

It's happening right now in Yarra Council, a gag as in a joke and a gag as in a choke, diversity and political correctness self-destructing as the council fails to agree on who's what!

Soon it will be one flag flying for every resident, they are all unique and special, very special!

[LP]

Amazing example of how politics plays into science reporting.

I notice that NASA has released a bunch of James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images. These are outstanding, but they left me a little blah, not because the images aren't great but because there was nothing to compare them to. I thought NASA missed a trick by not making direct comparisons between images from JWST and HST, like for like. 

However, when a queried an associate who works as a professional astronomer it was explained to me that the scientists do not want to diminish the remaining worth of the HST. So the decision was made to deliberately not make any overt direct comparison in the initial public offerings. It's probably there somewhere buried in the background info, but they won't highlight it. Because they don't want funding for HST cut prematurely, and they fear this might happen if public perceive HST as redundant.

It's bit sad and a bit cynical, is it an opportunity lost?

[DJC]

Amazing example of how politics plays into science reporting.

I notice that NASA has released a bunch of James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) images. These are outstanding, but they left me a little blah, not because the images aren't great but because there was nothing to compare them to. I thought NASA missed a trick by not making direct comparisons between images from JWST and HST, like for like.

However, when a queried an associate who works as a professional astronomer it was explained to me that the scientists do not want to diminish the remaining worth of the HST. So the decision was made to deliberately not make any overt direct comparison in the initial public offerings. It's probably there somewhere buried in the background info, but they won't highlight it. Because they don't want funding for HST cut prematurely, and they fear this might happen if public perceive HST as redundant.

It's bit sad and a bit cynical, is it an opportunity lost?

My oldest brother is an astronomer and he would never compromise science for political purposes.  If anything, he is dedicated to using science against political agendas.

I haven't spoken to him about the James Webb Telescope images but I noticed a comparison of James Webb Space Telescope images to Hubble's pictures: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-13/n.../101233396

[LP]

My oldest brother is an astronomer and he would never compromise science for political purposes.  If anything, he is dedicated to using science against political agendas.

I haven't spoken to him about the James Webb Telescope images but I noticed a comparison of James Webb Space Telescope images to Hubble's pictures: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-13/n.../101233396

Yes, maybe that comparison is a 3rd party effort, I can't see how what they did compromised the science at all. In fact they are trying to preserve as much of it as possible. For me the lost opportunity was about outreach, and I fully understand the risks to ongoing funding by having JWST make HST look redundant.

As much as I'm sure your brother's heart is true, everyone I know in science generally does stay true as they are so invested in the process of discovery, however most NASA administrators are political appointments and often career bureaucrats not scientists, and we know the business of space science is big big dollars!

Personally, I'd like to see HST signed over to the UN and be funded globally, I'm sure someone like SpaceX could with it's low cost operations treat it's servicing as marketing exercise. Someone just needs to fund it, and at that time access can be opened up to HST for outreach and training purposes. But it's going to be tough when even countries like Russia threaten to pull the pin on things like the ISS.