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(09-30-2021, 03:06 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.
On reading your post, what springs to mind is the thought of three unvaccinated senior RNs working with patients more likely than not to have compromised immune systems.
No doubt the three of them are well, otherwise they would not be working. If they should catch covid their chances of survival are far greater than the patients under their control.
The question I have is this: given the dreadful situation facing staff and patients in our hospitals, how many lives can they cost if they remain unvaccinated?
It just blows my mind that so-called responsible people knowingly place others in harm's way.
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(09-30-2021, 05:48 AM)Macca37 link Wrote:On reading your post, what springs to mind is the thought of three unvaccinated senior RNs working with patients more likely than not to have compromised immune systems.
No doubt the three of them are well, otherwise they would not be working. If they should catch covid their chances of survival are far greater than the patients under their control.
The question I have is this: given the dreadful situation facing staff and patients in our hospitals, how many lives can they cost if they remain unvaccinated?
It just blows my mind that so-called responsible people knowingly place others in harm's way. They have regular rapid antigen tests as well as nasal swab testing, two will probably have the vaccine but the other one will more than likely refuse and not be allowed to work which is a shame as she is a brilliant ER nurse both academically and practically and provided great advice to my family when we needed it.
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NSW Supreme Court hearing on now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJYXZn7HPE
My word the lawyers acting for the Plaintiffs are terrible. Zero chance of a win.
Finals, then 4 in a row!
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(09-30-2021, 06:26 AM)flyboy77 link Wrote:NSW Supreme Court hearing on now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJYXZn7HPE
My word the lawyers acting for the Plaintiffs are terrible. Zero chance of a win. Got sent same.....Marcus Clarke i think it was looks and sounds the part but the others
look like they were waiting for afternoon tea to be served...
Dr Gale didnt have much in the reference bin either....
Video has been pulled......
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09-30-2021, 07:04 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2021, 07:06 AM by Mav.)
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a nurse should have the right to work if s/he has concerns that s/he may be harmed by the vaccine, even if the risk is speculative and there’s a countervailing risk to patients and coworkers. Then shouldn’t the patients have a similar right to refuse to be treated by unvaccinated nurses? After all, as a subset of the population they have more to fear from Covid than the average punter. If you’re a transplant patient going in for a checkup, would you want to reduce the risks of being infected by staff?
To exercise such a right to object, the unvaccinated status of staff would need to be communicated to patients and a sufficient number of suitably qualified vaccinated staff would need to be available to avoid patients being forced by circumstances to accept treatment from unvaccinated staff. Of course, anti-vaxxers will say forcing the unvaccinated staff to reveal their status is like the Nazis forcing the Jews to wear yellow Stars of David ...
Should the privacy and rights of unvaccinated staff take priority over the rights of patients? Should patients be told that their fears are unreasonable and their nurses’ vaccination status is not theirs to know?
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09-30-2021, 07:15 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2021, 07:20 AM by ElwoodBlues1.)
(09-30-2021, 07:04 AM)Mav link Wrote:Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a nurse should have the right to work if s/he has concerns that s/he may be harmed by the vaccine, even if the risk is speculative and there’s a countervailing risk to patients and coworkers. Then shouldn’t the patients have a similar right to refuse to be treated by unvaccinated nurses? After all, as a subset of the population they have more to fear from Covid than the average punter. If you’re a transplant patient going in for a checkup, would you want to reduce the risks of being infected by staff?
To exercise such a right to object, the unvaccinated status of staff would need to be communicated to patients and a sufficient number of suitably qualified vaccinated staff would need to be available to avoid patients being forced by circumstances to accept treatment from unvaccinated staff. Of course, anti-vaxxers will say forcing the unvaccinated staff to reveal their status is like the Nazis forcing the Jews to wear yellow Stars of David ...
Should the privacy and rights of unvaccinated staff take priority over the rights of patients? Should patients be told that their fears are unreasonable and their nurses’ vaccination status is not theirs to know? Patients have the right to refuse treatment from a staff member regardless of CoVid, you can ask for a different nurse as long as the request is appropriate. ie you cant ask for the white nurse......or the pretty one.
Older folk might ask for the Italian, Greek, Manderin speaking nurse etc etc........
If you dont want the unvaccinated nurse then I am sure she will be happy to pass you over to another nurse and reduce her workload...
Unfortunately for Nurses they dont get to choose their patients...
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09-30-2021, 07:25 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-30-2021, 07:35 AM by Mav.)
Who determines whether a request for another nurse based on vaccination status is reasonable? Perhaps unvaccinated nurses would consider such a request should be refused in order to protect their civil rights.
And the other nurses would be happy to absorb the extra work? What refusal rate would cause problems? Should a hospital refuse to have more than a certain number of unvaccinated for fear of being unable to meet demand or would that be an unreasonable restraint of trade? Maybe we could put the unvaccinated nurses in the ED to work on unconscious patients who are in no position to object.
Are you sure the unvaccinated senior nurse you were referring to would be happy to alert patients to his or her vaccination status? What about the wider subset of unvaccinated workers?
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I’m going to assume the ED nurse hasn’t been advising patients of his or her unvaccinated status at all. Which is strange in a profession in which full and informed consent is foundational and we’re in the middle of a bloody pandemic. And I’ll also assume his or her ED doesn’t enquire of patients whether they are okay with unvaccinated staff. In other words, nurses’ health concerns trump patients’ health concerns. And no doubt it’s advantage nurses as almost all patients would assume the nursing staff are vaccinated. Like, it would be crazy if they weren’t, wouldn’t it?
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Nurses in critical care wards, cardiac, covid only wards etc are rapid antigen tested daily and nasal swabbed weekly so unvaccinated or vaccinated you would be very unlucky to to be infected by those Nurses. As far as I know declaring your vaccination status hasnt been deemed necessary by Hospital Management at this stage but they could wear black uniforms with a Grim Reaper symbol , you wouldnt miss them that way.
Daytime Ward administrators determine decision making with regards Nurses and Patients so they would make a call on changing Nurses if a patient made such a request. After hours it would be the Senior in Charge RN....
Ed's are full of nasties....most ED nurses are getting blood tests for HepC and the like etc every month from Blood Splatters , needle stick injuries from dealing with Meth Addicts, Crack Heads, etc and you get the odd nutter on the wards who wants to pull his Canula out and splatter you with it because the horrible nurse wants him to take his meds or do his obs and he was playing with himself and wants to finish his business...CoVid is just another nasty to add to the list for nurses, just chuck on your PPE and hope it does its job for you and the patients.
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I'll take that as a concession nurses don't do anything themselves to alert patients. And yay, administrators will always put their patients' interests first rather than worry about nurses going to war over their medical privacy or disruption caused by frequent requests for nursing changes ...
I'm sure you can read the tea leaves ... any patient who arks up over a nurse's unvaccinated status will be waiting a long time before they're seen. Of course patients could ask, but when you have a long wait in ED you won't want to be bumped. Or if you're booked in for surgery and then object to one of the nurses, you'd expect your operation will wait for another day.
Interesting that you are quite happy to write off any fear a patient might have as unreasonable, but the vaccination fears or objections of unvaccinated nurses are determinative no matter how remote risks associated with vaccination might be. And your opinion that patients are better off being treated by experienced unvaccinated staff is a little bit paternalistic. Better for patients to be bumrushed into accepting this by confronting them with a bureaucratic system which makes patients fear the Soup Nazi treatment if they don't go along to get along.
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