CV and mad panic behaviour

[Thryleon]

Good to see you’re owning the belief that drives your posts. Any restriction, no matter how insignificant, would be unwarranted if your belief were correct.

I'm all for being cautious when its a reasonable thing to do.  I championed the effort last year.  Was all for it.

Then this thing kicked in called critical thinking.  I know the motivation is noble but this risk averse approach to dealing with covid is really eating away at the fabric of our society and im seeing lotsof people lose hope and the will to continue.

Meanwhile im watching Hungary vs France play in a packed puskas arena (67000 capacity) while they go through 100 covid cases a day in the summer time.

We didn't have footy played in the state for 2 weeks off 100 cases in a fortnight in the winter time when covid is at its worst.

It doesn't add up Mav.  Covid just isn't that big a deal.  If it were we wouldn't be seeing these things play out.

We'd be hearing about devastating case numbers, and players being sidelined with illness.

Food for thought.  44% of their nation fully vaccinated, less than 55% having had at least one dose.

Its more advanced than we are but they also actually have cases.

[Mav]

Victor Orban and his far right party are in power in Hungary. Oddly enough, his party has used soccer as a way to entrench its power. They currently control 10 of the 12 top clubs and will increase that to 11 next season. The big stadium is a jewel in the crown. Of course holding the International was politically important. Was it safe? Maybe, but I’m not sure that was a deal-breaker.

Is it simply a coincidence that another far right leader, Brazil’s Bolsonaro, has hosted a big soccer event, Copa America, despite Covid-hit Latin countries being reluctant to act as hosts?

But apart from them both being more than a bit fascist (or as I like to call them, Blue Communists), they have approached Covid quite differently. Bolsonaro treats Covid as a hoax and does bugger all to stop it. He’s Brazil’s Trump. He even shares Trump’s hard-on over HCQ. He didn’t start his own warp-speed program regarding vaccines though. As a result, Brazil has been as slow to roll out vaccines as Australia. Like Australia, it blew off repeated offers from Pfizer. Now, it has suffered more than 500,000 deaths, making it 2nd only to the US for deaths.

By contrast, the Hungarians suffered a massive 3rd wave, boasting the world’s highest mortality rate at the time. Restrictions were brought in to control it and Orban instituted a massive vaccination program. Controversially, he embraced the Russian and Chinese vaccines to make it happen. For a nation of around 10 million, the death toll stands at over 30,000 but it led the EU in April for vaccination rates along with Malta. As you noted, its vaccination rate is way beyond Australia’s. Added to the natural immunity recovered Covid patients may have, they may be close to herd immunity. In fact, Hungary issues “immunity cards” to those who have been vaccinated and requires customers to produce them to enter restaurants and even soccer matches. Perhaps, the crowd at the international match you mention were required to produce such cards in order to be part of that crowd.

I don’t think Hungary’s Covid response shows that Covid is nothing to worry about or that we should just let it rip. It seems quite the opposite. Vaccinations are the key to their re-opening.

If only Scotty from Marketing had capitalised on the elimination efforts to roll out vaccines quickly. Imagine if we could accelerate uptake with something like an immunity card conferring access to events and travel. But how could we do this when a large percentage of the population hasn’t been eligible for vaccinations?

[Thryleon]

Mav, the message behind what im saying isn't political.

Its analytical.

Covid is a disease that isn't cutting people down the way we were first told it would. 

We'll see what happens in NSW from here but I see them a bit slower to go into meltdown and lock everyone down. 

The point to showing hungary was that despite a global pandemic people are willing to go to a game that they are allowed to in numbers. 

This isn't a worry for them on a people level.

The populace is where you see the trouble not in government strategy.  Crowds attending games in their droves even in a nation with over 800k positive cases.

Its a tell.

Whether or not you equate that to letting it rip or not is a different story but letting it rip doesn't mean everyone has to go out it. Just means that people can make the choice to. 

For starters we should be playing footy in empty stadoums as scheduled rather than seeing the afl swing around frantically trying to reschedule games.

Whether or not crowds can attend can be subject to vaccination, a negative test, online booking for tickets, temperature checks etc.  Instead we get low rates of transmission become shut all borders from midnight tomorrow night rather than implement some rules that are easy to maintain with or without outbreaks that are able to see some semblance of normality resume. 

[Mav]

Yes, let’s open up to vaccinated people. Fully vaccinated people should have some sort of immunity/vaccine passport that allows them to bypass restrictions. But to make that fair in Australia, vaccinations have to be open to everybody who wants one (and to those who don’t but will have one to gain the benefits that go with the passport).

I’d imagine the right wingers will rise up as one against this idea, though, as they’ll say anti-vaxxers can’t be discriminated against. So we’re back to square one. We have to treat the vaccinated as if they haven’t been vaccinated.

[LP]

Covid is a disease that isn't cutting people down the way we were first told it would.

Doesn't that depend on where you are and when, go somewhere the health system is over run to reconfirm that and the story might be very different.

It seems our health system isn't over-run because of the aggressive restrictions, not in spite of them!

And I'll reiterate, COVID deaths are only one measure, long COVID is going to become a much bigger issue if effective treatments are not found. If the restrictions and lockdowns buy time to develop those treatments, then that is probably a good thing.

If too many 20 somethings get heart or kidney disease, that's a lifetime of care dollar$ we will all be subsidising, it is not an insignificant risk!

[Mav]

Yep, it must be a galling paradox for epidemiologists and politicians. If measures they implement are successful in containing Covid, critics will say the low impact of Covid shows those measures were unnecessary.

[capcom]

You seriously think those agreeing with the anti vaxxers are right wing?  I'd suggest the complete reverse is closer to the truth.

EDIT

[PaulP]

https://theconversation.com/anti-vaccina...tion-81001

[flyboy77]

We have numerous treatments presently available, known about since early 2020 (in the case of Ivermectin), earlier (15 years earlier) in the case of HCQ but alas, should the authorities accept there's a viable treatment, you can't issue an EUA.....

Here's the latest, greatest on Ivermectin.

https://journals.lww.com/americantherape...98040.aspx

And who knew 303 folk have died in Australia coincidentally within days/weeks of taking the jab?

(Of course, if you're expecting to die in the immediate term, the jab is always your top priority!)

https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19...17-06-2021

So much for the time tested Precautionary Principle.

https://c19ivermectin.com/

[LP]

You seriously think those agreeing with the anti vaxxers are right wing?  I'd suggest the complete reverse is closer to the truth.

The division is not along political lines, there has always been a very strong anti-vaxx movement based on economics rather than politics. Historically, it's the well-to-do inner city dwellers who are least likely to be vaccinated and more likely to have unvaccinated children for any vaccine not just COVID.

I've heard it described as a new world entitlement, they are entitled to have you vaccinated for their personal benefit!

I blame the Hippocratic Oath, or various aborted versions of it!