CV and mad panic behaviour

[madbluboy]

You're not concerned about deliberately bringing infected people into our country and city to play tennis?

[LP]

It sure is!

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-04/v...FxyhfwewjA

This my top takeaway from that article;

The problem is that we humans are suckers for the status quo. When life is good, we're hardwired to coast along, and not do anything to disrupt that. It's only when crap (like our health) hits the fan, that we suddenly desperately want someone to DO SOMETHING, ANYTHING, to make it better again.

Nobody would have cried or panicked more than Trump when he was diagnosed, despite have all the resources of the USA at his behest, resources that his adoring fans will never even get within sight of! That sloth stood by doing absolutely sweet feck all except paint lies about his actions, while millions of his countrymen became ill, many of them eventually dying.

[LP]

You're not concerned about deliberately bringing infected people into our country and city to play tennis?

[member=26]madbluboy[/member] It's an interesting idea if that really happened, that is if they deliberately imported a foreigner they knew was COVID infectious. Think of what that means for example to the airline and other employers, to the insurance companies?

As I understand all those arriving have to pass a negative on a COVID test before being allowed to board the plane, even Australian citizens can't get on a plane if they test positive.

I thought the players that have arrived with positives after arrival are likely to have contracted or become infectious while in transit or quarantine, it's understandable given what you get exposed to while travelling.

I think this will become the new normal for travel anyway, I can't ever see it going back to the old normal, so we better get our head around dealing with it!

[Thryleon]

Can I ask about the bit in bold, how do you weigh that?

Simple stuff.  The initial modelling was done on every covid positive needing ECMO or an ICU admission.  That meant that people who didnt get treatment were certainties to die from it.  Thats why we locked down to prevent the spread.  Then we got case numbers in the thousands, and tens of thousands with the net result of people who were already immuno compromised really the only ones that led to really adverse outcomes (note this is not true of everyone, but we are likely to take the same approach with administering a vaccine for a net break even here).  the rest have become sick and are getting on with their lives with some ongoing symptoms that are not life threatening (for now as far as we know).  Now I don't want to diminish the risks associated with COVID and i do think we should do what is in our power to prevent these people becoming unwell, but not via injecting everyone with a jab that is both costly and developed so quickly that I am skeptical about it.  I am not an anti vaxer, and you can shut down that pete evans crap right now.

I presume you come at this from an evidence base, can you share it?

If you were able to obtain evidence on demand, what evidence would you accept that the / a vaccine is safe?

My evidence based perspective is largely formed by an opinion shared with me by an Epidemiologist before we were told that a vaccine was available and works.  He stated, that Covid being from the SARS family of viruses wont likely get a vaccine because we didnt find a SARS vaccine, and that means that any COVID vaccine is years away from being administered.  Within 6 months he is proven incorrect.

Now, call me a cynic, but its my life experience that has taught me to be one, but I think that the global pandemic has caused such a lot of disruption and panic, that the only way for the people who called it one to save face in it, is to come up with a miracle cure that sees it "vanish" as quickly as it came.  This refers you back to my previous point about it not being as bad as we thought initially.  You combine this with a vaccine hastily produced, and my sentiment is very very unlikely to shift about any vaccine they sell me.

So much so, that I might even resign if faced with the proposition of get it or go being presented to me.  I dont say that easily, ive been here for a while, and I like where I am at, but sometimes you have to do whats right, not what is easy. 

I get the flu vaccine every year largely because I have to, to do my job.  Not because I think it works, but also because there is a report sent around if I dont get one. This time, I dont think I will take such a flippant approach for a vaccine to a virus we only really started learning about a year ago.

[LP]

Simple stuff.  The initial modelling was done on every covid positive needing ECMO or an ICU admission.  That meant that people who didnt get treatment were certainties to die from it.  Thats why we locked down to prevent the spread.  Then we got case numbers in the thousands, and tens of thousands with the net result of people who were already immuno compromised really the only ones that led to really adverse outcomes (note this is not true of everyone, but we are likely to take the same approach with administering a vaccine for a net break even here).  the rest have become sick and are getting on with their lives with some ongoing symptoms that are not life threatening (for now as far as we know).  Now I don't want to diminish the risks associated with COVID and i do think we should do what is in our power to prevent these people becoming unwell, but not via injecting everyone with a jab that is both costly and developed so quickly that I am skeptical about it.  I am not an anti vaxer, and you can shut down that pete evans crap right now.

Yes, the "life threatening" part is interesting, is that what it takes for an illness to be treated seriously?

A lot of people talk about the fiscal and mental health effects of dealing with COVID lockdowns, what mental health or fiscal effects of illness induced sterility, partial paralysis or paraplegia, anosmia, myopia and the growing list of neurological disorders?

In the UK after millions and millions of cases, the statistical numbers relating to the widespread long term effects are concerning enough for me to say vaccines are worth it. The report is about 10% of cases suffer significant long term issues like those listed above, add to that we now have burgeoning reports of late fatalities from secondary admissions to hospital months and months after the initial hospitalisation. Those figures coming out of millions of cases would be pretty reliable numbers. Doesn't that count for anything?

I wonder if the COVID deniers would have been so quick to release their kids to a mild infection, if they knew there was a risk of little Jimmy or Jill becoming sterile. Of course we do not know the long term outcome, but is it worth the risk? Perhaps our old mate Pete can host a COVID party! :o

If Trump hadn't been in power and politically smashing the CDC or NIH, we'd have reliable numbers from the US as well by now, the debate would be dead and buried(bad choice of words).

[LP]

My evidence based perspective is largely formed by an opinion shared with me by an Epidemiologist before we were told that a vaccine was available and works.  He stated, that Covid being from the SARS family of viruses wont likely get a vaccine because we didnt find a SARS vaccine, and that means that any COVID vaccine is years away from being administered.  Within 6 months he is proven incorrect.

Now, call me a cynic, but its my life experience that has taught me to be one, but I think that the global pandemic has caused such a lot of disruption and panic, that the only way for the people who called it one to save face in it, is to come up with a miracle cure that sees it "vanish" as quickly as it came.  This refers you back to my previous point about it not being as bad as we thought initially.  You combine this with a vaccine hastily produced, and my sentiment is very very unlikely to shift about any vaccine they sell me.

So much so, that I might even resign if faced with the proposition of get it or go being presented to me.  I dont say that easily, ive been here for a while, and I like where I am at, but sometimes you have to do whats right, not what is easy. 

I get the flu vaccine every year largely because I have to, to do my job.  Not because I think it works, but also because there is a report sent around if I dont get one. This time, I dont think I will take such a flippant approach for a vaccine to a virus we only really started learning about a year ago.

So really you're asserting you do not think any vaccine is really regardless of available evidence, does that make this debate pointless?

It would be reasonable to declare that position when commenting, it doesn't make you an anti-vaxer but it's not a trivial perspective to start from. What do you want from some 3rd party commenting like myself, are you trying to convert?

[ElwoodBlues1]

I'm with MBB on the tennis....its all about money and less about lives, we were happy to cancel the cricket in South Africa where there was no money to be made yet happy to have the Indians tour and it will take a nuclear war to stop a money spinner like the Ashes going ahead next summer. Those same cricketers who were at such high risk going to South Africa are all headed to the IPL to ply their trade for mega bucks and of course will get special treatment so they can re-enter the country.
The Aus open is just another sporting money spinner that wont be cancelled, tennis players and their entourage's from all parts of the glove entering our country is just too much of a risk given the new strains and whats happening in their own countries.
600 possible contacts and counting from our infected friend and a range of exposure sites, going to take a miracle for none of those contacts not to have it and not infect others and start off another chain.

[LP]

I'm with MBB on the tennis....its all about money and less about lives,

Most of the money is not connected to the crowds, it's TV, so maybe you can have a bit each way provided you do not cheap out and burn the house down in the process!

But I would not leave the firefighting and prevention drills up the organisers, they will certainly take a shortcut as the bottom line pays bonusses, I'd be all over them like a Bureaucratic rash with the threat of criminal charges for any negligence! In that circumstance they will decide themselves if it's worth it or not! Do not let them run the even at zero risk, make them accountable!

[Thryleon]

So really you're asserting you do not think any vaccine is really regardless of available evidence, does that make this debate pointless?

It would be reasonable to declare that position when commenting, it doesn't make you an anti-vaxer but it's not a trivial perspective to start from. What do you want from some 3rd party commenting like myself, are you trying to convert?

No you are asserting that, because it makes that argument easier to attack and much easier to paint me as a Pete Evans type.  To date, I have not refused a vaccine, but this might be my first rodeo.  The anti vax crowd is who this entire argument is aimed at to start with.  I am quite balanced with my views, particularly in respect to COVID.  I have not stated the thing about the epidemiologist for the first time on this forum, and frankly, I did so thinking that I might have to make that argument again pretty quickly because they found a magic covid bullet and lo and behold here we are.

Why dont we simply keep our country COVID free for 2 years, and then get some meaningful data about what a covid vaccine means for the nations that have vaccinated, rather than become a guinea pig like the rest?

Isn't that smarter than making everyone get a vaccine?  Why?  If they give us a vaccine, and then no one gets covid it doesnt vindicate anything if we stay covid safe here.  If they give us a vaccine, and our numbers are similar, we keep wearing masks, the lockdowns continue, then there is minimal value in the vaccine too.  Instead we are jumping on board for a vaccine, that we statistically dont see in our community, and havent really seen in our community.  Will it be bad, will it be good?  Will people get sick, will they die? Can you answer these questions?

Id like to see a lot more data about all of it, but I am not going to get that choice, and you can bet your bottom dollar that my vaccine proposition is much closer to me, than it is to you.  Frankly, I think you are debating this with yourself, and not me. 

Yes, the "life threatening" part is interesting, is that what it takes for an illness to be treated seriously?

No, but the only confirmed cases I know of, are back to work, and generally symptom free aside from compromised senses of smell.

Now that in itself is bad enough, but lets place that to the side for a moment.  Lets inject people with a vaccine that we are not even confident works, because the rest of the world says so?  What about our Nurse in portugal who got the jab in her early 40's and passed away within 48 hours?

https://www.theportugalnews.com/news/202...cine/57533

its ok, she didnt suffer any adverse reactions, and had no underlying health concerns.  Must have died of natural causes.

A lot of people talk about the fiscal and mental health effects of dealing with COVID lockdowns, what mental health or fiscal effects of illness induced sterility, partial paralysis or paraplegia, anosmia, myopia and the growing list of neurological disorders?

In the UK after millions and millions of cases, the statistical numbers relating to the widespread long term effects are concerning enough for me to say vaccines are worth it.

  Thats a different debate.  I am not saying vaccines are not worth it.  I dont want the COVID vaccine, and Id rather we took a different approach, rather than jumping on the Vaccine bandwagon.  We have happily kept our country rather COVID free, and I am an advocate of that approach not a vaccination.

The report about 10% of cases suffer significant long term issues like those listed above, add to that we now have burgeoning reports of late fatalities from secondary admissions to hospital months and months after the initial hospitalisation. Doesn't that count for anything?

  That counts for something with respect to what the virus is capable of doing, but if faced with a covid positive outcome, or a vaccine outcome, i choose the former not the latter in respect to where we live and our case numbers.  I am not certain to get Covid, but if i get a vaccine I am certainly worried that it will cause more harm to me than the virus will, because probability states that whilst we are covid free I am unlikely to contract it, and even if I did, probability also states that I have a high chance of having minimal issues (asymptomatic cases are far more common than symptomatic according to the case numbers and not all positive cases lead to medical treatment is another factor the data).  So far, 100% of vaccinations received a vaccine.  Sure, not all of them had adverse effects, but some do and some have, and referring back to my epidemiologist whom I quoted earlier, he asserted that they are unlikely to produce one so quickly.  Ergo, what are we ACTUALLY getting?

I wonder if the COVID deniers would have been so quick to release their kids to a mild infection, if they knew there was a risk of little Jimmy or Jill becoming sterile. Of course we do not know the long term outcome, but is it worth the risk?

If Trump hadn't been in power and politically smashing the CDC or NIH, we'd have reliable numbers from the US as well by now, the debate would be dead and buried(bad choice of words).

Not relevant, but nice try.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Most of the money is not connected to the crowds, it's TV, so maybe you can have a bit each way provided you do not cheap out and burn the house down in the process!

But I would not leave the firefighting and prevention drills up the organisers, they will certainly take a shortcut as the bottom line pays bonusses, I'd be all over them like a Bureaucratic rash with the threat of criminal charges for any negligence! In that circumstance they will decide themselves if it's worth it or not! Do not let them run the even at zero risk, make them accountable!

You cancel the Tennis then there are no sponsors and as you say no TV so no money...the live crowd are accessories.
The players and their entourage entering the country from all parts of the world are the problem and as you say relying on organisers to be extra vigilant isnt going to work when its such a big event.
Can you trust Dan?, he was the lockdown king but now with bills to pay and elections to win, he wants a bit each way..