If Not BB, Who?

[PaulP]

Fixed.

Sticks out like dog's balls.

IMO, Pagan and Bolton both have mitigating circumstances, and perhaps Brittain as well. Ratts IMO is a decent coach, plus he had Judd and a few other handy players, and i think he also knew the club inside out, and hence knew his way around and could do his thing without causing trouble or being a victim of undue interference. 

Pagan arrived to a club in turmoil, and was white anted by senior players (justifiably or otherwise). Brittain I think had plenty of injuries, and I'm guessing zero support from Elliot. And Bolton has been part of a world record rebuild, so I stand by my previous assertion (however unsatisfactory or unacceptable) that the results from the first 3 years don't count.

[LP]

Sticks out like dog's balls.

IMO, Pagan and Bolton both have mitigating circumstances, and perhaps Brittain as well. Ratts IMO is a decent coach, plus he had Judd and a few other handy players, and i think he also knew the club inside out, and hence knew his way around and could do his thing without causing trouble or being a victim of undue interference. 

Pagan arrived to a club in turmoil, and was white anted by senior players (justifiably or otherwise). Brittain I think had plenty of injuries, and I'm guessing zero support from Elliot. And Bolton has been part of a world record rebuild, so I stand by my previous assertion (however unsatisfactory or unacceptable) that the results from the first 3 years don't count.

While not defending Pagan I think you'll find the AFL sanctions kiboshed Pagan as much as anything. He arrived to a club with an aging list and was left with only the ability to draft has-beens. In some way, before the AFL sanctions, Pagan was to do the same job with fresh youth that BB is now tasked with doing.

MM was just a huge mistake, not much else to say.

Brittain was the one white-anted more than any other, by the highest levels with our club and along with the AFL those ultimate powers have a lot to answer for! I think it's no accident Brittain is still working behind the scenes at the Lions and in the northern development leagues.

Ratten while undermined within the club and externally, also contributed to his won fate and will tell you as much. He's a much better coach now but he may never get that next opportunity.

[madbluboy]

Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

[LP]

Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

We have never been in this situation before, having an aging or recycled list of high draft picks is not like have a list full young inexperienced list full of high draft picks.

It's fundamentally a different situation, and our club did this to itself deliberately.

We are like Cortes, we've burned our ships there is no going back! We have to get shagging with the natives and breed up a new culture!

[madbluboy]

It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

[LP]

It's either a coaching problem or a list problem.

Bolton or SOS?

Who is at fault here?

It's not black and white, the recruiter does what the club and MC demand, the coach and MC work with what the recruiter can deliver. In recent times the demarcation point seems to be the appointment of LoGiudice, prior to that any measures are somewhat irrelevant.

If you identify just one or the other, you are basically just picking a side in a chicken and egg argument. To me that would be a return to the even worse times in the later days Elliott or Malthouse. Men who time had past!

The first part of being a successful AFL footballer is getting the football, we have no problem doing that we already win plenty of contested ball across all lines of the ground. As plain as day our problem is using it once we get it and that problem resolves with experience. Whether those youthful players lack that ability, or are just failing to execute as required is yet to be answered.

[madbluboy]

Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

[LP]

Elliott days? When we were winning flags?

This is the worst era in our history. Right now!!!!

We can crap on about improvement and green shoots but it's not translating on the scoreboard.

Later days of Elliott and Malthouse.

I don't see much difference between us and the Dawks of 2004/2005/2006. This is our 2006 right now, a year the Dawks won 4 games in the first half of the season before winning 9 games in total, after seasons of 4 wins and 5 wins, and we are starting from a much much lower base.

fwiw, I think our poor 2018 was anomaly. A rookie administration, a rookie MC and a shell shocked playing list that reacted to AFL and AFL media criticism by changing a game plan due to peer(media) pressure. They won't make that mistake again, we will stick fat now, we won't be Pavlov's Dog again!

I think we are much closer to having an iron clad defense than a dominant forward line, we should be trying to win ugly 50pts to 40pts before we worry about kicking 100pts. We were closer to wins two years ago but we folded under peer pressure to adopt a game style for TV purposes that didn't suit our list!

As for the AFL media now talking up our situation, they have to because we've done what they asked of us. If they bag us now they are bagging themselves!

[Lods]

I think we have folks with strong views on both sides of the debate.
That's good for forum business...I'm not sure it's a position the club would want to see.

But there are also some of us who are sitting squarely in the middle....and I'm totally buggered if I know "Where we are at!"
'Have faith' I'm told.
But bloody faith is the most 'airy fairy' thing in football.
It's totally meaningless and has no influence on what will happen... (unless you're a club director)

The problem this season is the first three weeks have given us a group of results that have only muddied the perception.
Real Jekyll and Hyde stuff.
Some say they can see real improvement but if we look back over the last three years we could find many post game threads where we've talked about 'real' improvement.

I like Bolton. I like his attitude. I think he does generally have a lot of support from the playing group' I think they believe he can make them better players and have embraced what he's trying to achieve.
I'm also sure he's learning and developing in the role and his coaching will only get better.
But there is a time limit.
It's not set, and can happen very quickly if things go completely pear-shaped.
Am I convinced he's the coach that can get the results we want before his time runs out?...
No, I'm not sure, and that's based solely on the fact that the results so far are a decline in both wins and ladder position that hasn't been offset by a real improvement in development and performance.

It's not irreversible.
He has until the end of this season before any real pressure comes on.
What saves him?
For that we need to see wins and a steady rise up the ladder.
Now hopefully that may come...but we can't just wipe the last three years...and go "Starting Now!"

As we've seen in another thread the core of this playing group was there before Bolton.
With the addition of those drafted in his first year he has had a stable group that makes up a large part of his starting 22 players, albeit severely affected by injuries at different stages.

Yet what we've seen is us heading South in terms of ladder position and games won each year.
So until you turn that around you have to cop a bit of flack.

Show us some solid evidence in terms of
-player improvement
-teaming together and structure
-wins
-ladder improvement
….and the criticism will evaporate.

I still think the great majority of Carlton supporters want this to work.
I don't know what we do if it doesn't.

[PaulP]

Bolton's record sticks out like dog balls.

He has all the draft picks, best player in the comp and full support of the board/club, media have been tame on him and the results are pathetic.

The draft picks that you refer to have been built up gradually. The club was at a very low point when he arrived. We assume and hope he has the board's full support. The fact that there is no news coming out on that front is a good thing IMO. And yes, the media has been good to him, in large part because he's affable and doesn't inflame situations, unlike Malthouse, who brought a lot of unnecessary heat on himself and the club.

Of course the results are lousy, as previously discussed. The only issue of any import is whether Bolton and the players can turn it around. I remain hopeful.