VFLW Rd 5: Carlton vs Darebin Falcons

[Lods]

As a 64 year old male athlete I'm struggling to keep up with similarly aged female athletes ;D :

Age is a big leveller

[DJC]

Isn't McNight famous for writing an article titled, "There is no such thing as a natural born woman!"

But again, McNight makes use of circumstances when things go genetically wrong to justify his stance, it makes him come across almost as a gender denier. But again his whole stance is built on minority circumstances.

Again, when things go wrong for any number of associated reasons will not a suitable standards to use in this case.

Regardless of McNight's personal views, facts are facts.  The World Health Organisation is clearly part of the one world government conspiracy funded by the IMF, Israel and the banks but I suspect that they are reporting facts too:

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender.

Mouncey is a former male Olympic / Commonwealth games athlete, an athlete who competed in conditions that required gender clarification. Was it wrong then?

In fact Mouncey is not an Olympic/Commonwealth Games athlete, but she may well become one in women's handball:

President of Handball Victoria Kirsten Lange said she was proud to be part of such an inclusive sport, which she said was growing every year.

"All players come in all shapes and sizes. As a taller or maybe a bigger player, it is difficult. Hannah is a bit taller, she jumps a bit higher. Therefore you need to go out further, quicker in order to stop her."

Mouncey's strength and size are not seen as an unfair advantage, though, rather just other aspects for opponents to take into account when facing her on the court.

"So I think it's just a matter of finding a handball skill to stop her. We don't have a problem with that. We have other players who may be a bit larger in size as well and we have to stop them," Ms Lange said.

Not a contact sport and not relevant, it's like arguing against trans-gender ten pin bowling participants.

Not relevant by what criteria.  The arguments you are making are exactly what was said about Renée Richards and they came to nothing.

What hope that little girl if she collides with a Mouncey type during a contact sport?

What hope that little girl if she collides with Erin Phillips, Alison Downie, Sarah Perkins or Sabrina Frederick-Traub?

In fact, what hope Paddy Dow if he collides with Aaron Sandilands?

Maybe not, but if they were former male athletes and they have re-assigned why not join in? I won't at all be surprised to find some failed NBA athlete who has re-assigned decide that a good living can be made in the AFLW, after all isn't that exactly what Mouncey is, a failed male Olympic /Commonwealth games athlete now re-assigned for whatever reason and joining in the AFLW?

I'm sure that there are plenty of sports where a lot more money can be made than what AFLW player earns.  I don't see a lot of failed male athletes rushing to undergo gender re-assignment so they can make a killing in any sport, contact or non-contact.

I don't give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare, whether she plays or doesn't, but I do feel sorry for her in the circumstance. My major worry is about the genetically female 54kg athlete who is going to compete against a transitioned athlete with 20 or 30 years of testosterone driven bone and muscle development to build an AFLW career on. What happens after the fact is almost but not totally irrelevant, at least we seem to agree on that!

I don't particularly give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare either.  I just want to add a little balance to a debate that has largely ignored the subtleties of sex and gender.

[Thryleon]

DJC this stuff is largely construct based ideology.

Sure biology will come to the party in a few cases per thousand (to quote your stats), but even so in these individuals we still end up with generally males and females who are simply rejecting that they might be one way in order to explore the other.

I work with a trans guy who calls himself a female lesbian.  In his case very similar to Hannah.  I'm accepting of the fact that these people want to put on a dress,  and will entertain the idea but nothing about these people screams female to me, and by the looks of things I'd be gobsmacked if they were even tenuously female genetically.

Mental health is very much theory based and hasn't progressed as far as people think it has, and I think there is a genuine mental health issue regarding how we arrive at trans being an option.  It's not a real option. They wear a gender construct identity based on irrational feelings of what might make them happy in the belief they know what it is to be the opposite gender which involves placing a gender into the definition of a stereotype.

The thought process behind being trans is even more flawed than biology is IMHO because of how we arrive at the "I'm a male born in the wrong body" and vice versa.

You were born this way.

[DJC]

Thry, one of my former colleagues did a PhD on sex and gender and I must admit that my eyes glazed over when she tried to explain her conclusions.

I have little idea of the relationship between chromosome abnormality and transgender but, from a couple of case studies I have seen/read, there is a biological basis for at least some gender reassignments.

It’s not as clear cut (no pun) as it may seem, regardless of one’s point of view.

[kruddler]

Is it not as simple as ensuring that any gender reassignment has to begin before puberty to ensure, as Juddy points out, you don't get the testosterone benefit before transitioning?

That is have your hormone blockers before the testosterone can have an irreversible physical effect on your body.

Of course you are welcome to have them after that in your life, but would be excluded from womens sport.

[Thryleon]

Thry, one of my former colleagues did a PhD on sex and gender and I must admit that my eyes glazed over when she tried to explain her conclusions.

I have little idea of the relationship between chromosome abnormality and transgender but, from a couple of case studies I have seen/read, there is a biological basis for at least some gender reassignments.

It’s not as clear cut (no pun) as it may seem, regardless of one’s point of view.

I don't doubt it.  We know of hermaphrodites as an example.

Where I want to challenge this field is to discourage re-assignment surgery.

Why?

Why do it?

Accept your biology.  Accept that you don't fit in a box of one or the other.  Don't transition.  its impossible and you become neither.

[LP]

DJC, you keep arguing that a few births in a thousand is the good basis for this Mouncey situation, when it is clearly not!

In that 1000 there are hundreds of other females who will never play AFLW for any number of reasons, Mouncey's story should be one of them, there should not be special rules put in place for the minorities and exceptions!

As a 64 year old male athlete I'm struggling to keep up with similarly aged female athletes ;D :

Age is a big leveller

And yet Lods, a 52 year old transition college professor competes head to head with teenage female athletes!

Isn't that a clear sign of inequity?

[DJC]

DJC, you keep arguing that a few births in a thousand is the good basis for this Mouncey situation, when it is clearly not!

In that 1000 there are hundreds of other females who will never play AFLW for any number of reasons, Mouncey's story should be one of them, there should not be special rules put in place for the minorities and exceptions!

And yet Lods, a 52 year old transition college professor competes head to head with teenage female athletes!

Isn't that a clear sign of inequity?

I don't believe that I am arguing any such thing LP.  I don't know why Mouncey decided to undergo gender re-assignment but it is reasonable to assume  that it may have been in response to biological circumstances.  After all, chromosome abnormalities occur in about 0.5 to 1 per cent of all live births, and that's much more than a few births in a thousand.  Of course, chromosome abnormalities aren't the only reasons why the gender assigned to children at birth doesn't pan out in adulthood.  The point I am making is that your hypothesis that failed male athletes will undergo gender re-assignment for financial gain simply doesn't stack up.

Is it not as simple as ensuring that any gender reassignment has to begin before puberty to ensure, as Juddy points out, you don't get the testosterone benefit before transitioning?

That is have your hormone blockers before the testosterone can have an irreversible physical effect on your body.

Of course you are welcome to have them after that in your life, but would be excluded from womens sport.

There's merit in this approach but it assumes that the individual will know whether they are male or female before puberty and that may be asking too much.  I have read of cases where little Johnny or little Betty has known that their assigned gender is wrong while they are in their first decade ... but what if they have got it wrong?

It is Pandora's box of worms and I'm glad that I'm not responsible for coming up with a workable solution.  However, the sooner we move on from stereotypical gender classifications the better.

[kruddler]

There's merit in this approach but it assumes that the individual will know whether they are male or female before puberty and that may be asking too much.  I have read of cases where little Johnny or little Betty has known that their assigned gender is wrong while they are in their first decade ... but what if they have got it wrong?

It is Pandora's box of worms and I'm glad that I'm not responsible for coming up with a workable solution.  However, the sooner we move on from stereotypical gender classifications the better.

It doesn't assume anything.

If they are aware of it early on in life, no harm no foul.
If they don't know about it until later in life, sorry, sucks to be you, but we can't help you.

That way it is back on them, not on the AFL.

How many cases will this effect over the next decade? Probably none anyway.

[LP]

After all, chromosome abnormalities occur in about 0.5 to 1 per cent of all live births, and that's much more than a few births in a thousand.

Isn't it the XY chromosomes we are worried about, not the other few dozen?

Most XY abnormalities fall in the 1:1000 ratio or much much higher, which by my maths is 0.1% or less!

The point I am making is that your hypothesis that failed male athletes will undergo gender re-assignment for financial gain simply doesn't stack up.

Who said failed, and who said they would re-assign to participate in a sport, why couldn't they re-assign then decide to participate?

Their are already athletes who post their professional career have gender re-assigned, and they will be free to join another sport as a female under these rules.

In the extreme we could hypothesise a Le Bron James could transition at 35 and becomes an AFLW player at say 40 with physical abilities far beyond the reach of the females in the competition! The fact the possibility exists for any transition male to do this it makes mockery of the sport!

I'm not so certain about your claim nobody would do this, India's eunuchs being a very good example of voluntary gender re-assignment for religion or for profit! What was Caitlyn Jenner's motive, mental health, sexual identification or lifestyle?

Finally, Carlton participate in Carlton Repsects, but for the born female athletes joining AFLW, where is the respect for them in this debate, why are they not allowed to compete against others on equal terms, does respect only apply to people in a minority?