Team selection disection

[flyboy77]

i'll take that as a concession.  8)

[kruddler]

i'll take that as a concession.  8)

So he handballs because he is an average kick is a concession?

But its BS that he's an average kick?

Your 'logic' is interesting to say the least.

[DJC]

Why is it when someone says the word 'average' people lose their crap.

The simple definition of the word means that on any given list, half of the blokes are below average in terms of kicking ability.

Yes, GIbbs kicking from stoppages was pretty bad....as is most people. Gibbs kicking around the ground is elite.

So by extension, If Gibbs is an elite kick, but struggles around stoppages, what do you think an average kick like Cripps would be like from stoppages?

There is a reason he doesn't kick much, especially from stoppages....he's playing the %'s.

If you've got some time, compare the kick to handball ratio of the 2 players and see why one prefers to kick and the other prefers to handball.

Sorry Kruddler, but that’s not what average means.  Half of the list will be below the mean but the average could be above or below the mean.

Cripps and Gibbs both execute many of their disposals under more pressure than many other players and that results in a disposal efficiency of 68.7% and 69.8% respectively.  The difference is not statistically significant but I’d argue that, as Gibbs gets more uncontested possessions, his disposal efficiency should be better.

I like Gibbs as a player and was sorry to see him go.  However, one thing that irked me was his tendency to fluff kicks when under minimal pressure; the missed goal against Hawthorn for example.

[flyboy77]

So he handballs because he is an average kick is a concession?

But its BS that he's an average kick?

Your 'logic' is interesting to say the least.

One gentle piece of advice Kruddler, stick to what you're good at, ok?

[kruddler]

Sorry Kruddler, but that’s not what average means.  Half of the list will be below the mean but the average could be above or below the mean.

Cripps and Gibbs both execute many of their disposals under more pressure than many other players and that results in a disposal efficiency of 68.7% and 69.8% respectively.  The difference is not statistically significant but I’d argue that, as Gibbs gets more uncontested possessions, his disposal efficiency should be better.

I like Gibbs as a player and was sorry to see him go.  However, one thing that irked me was his tendency to fluff kicks when under minimal pressure; the missed goal against Hawthorn for example.

I'm making the point that roughly half of the AFL is 'average or below' in terms of kicking.  You are correct in what you say, but it serves little purpose and the point i make is still valid. Nobody considers anybody 'average'. To suggest someone could be is always taken as an insult. Its clear that not everyone can be above average.....unless they play for the club you support and you have your navy coloured glasses on.

re DE%'s....
I was wondering if someone was going to compare them.
I'd argue this, a kick is a harder skill to execute and thus players who kick more have a lower % compared to those who simply handball.
The longest kick people attempt? Lets just suggest 50m, but you could argue more.
The shortest kick? Basically 15m to be considered a mark is about right, but you could argue less. The number of kicks people attempt above 50 is probably equal to those below 15, so 15-50m is the range.
Handballs? anything from 0.5m up to maybe 10m....you rarely see bigger, and if you do its usually just to space.

Difficulty level is clearly harder with kicking.

That being said, you also can't analyze simply kicks vs handballs either. As generally the more skilled players attempt higher degree of difficulty kicks. A couple of perfect examples to that are Eddie Betts and Stevie J. They do things a ruckman would never even think is an option. It doesn't always come off, but attempting them drops their %'s compared to if they took the easy option all the time.....which most ruckman do. So much so, some rucks dont even attempt a kick at all!

So that being said, use %'s to compare, sure, but watch the game to get the whole picture.

FWIW, Cripps goal kicking efforts over his career - 23.32 (42%)...or 33% if you go by AFL.com.au stats which include complete misses.

So yes, i stand by my comments that Cripps is average by foot....which is probably doing him a favour.

Note: This does not mean Cripps is not an elite player, nor does it mean i love him any less. Even superman had his kryptonite.

[kruddler]

One gentle piece of advice Kruddler, stick to what you're good at, ok?

Pointing out the grand canyon sized holes in your logic? Deal.  ;D

[DJC]

I'm making the point that roughly half of the AFL is 'average or below' in terms of kicking.  You are correct in what you say, but it serves little purpose and the point i make is still valid. Nobody considers anybody 'average'. To suggest someone could be is always taken as an insult. Its clear that not everyone can be above average.....unless they play for the club you support and you have your navy coloured glasses on.

re DE%'s....
I was wondering if someone was going to compare them.
I'd argue this, a kick is a harder skill to execute and thus players who kick more have a lower % compared to those who simply handball.
The longest kick people attempt? Lets just suggest 50m, but you could argue more.
The shortest kick? Basically 15m to be considered a mark is about right, but you could argue less. The number of kicks people attempt above 50 is probably equal to those below 15, so 15-50m is the range.
Handballs? anything from 0.5m up to maybe 10m....you rarely see bigger, and if you do its usually just to space.

Difficulty level is clearly harder with kicking.

That being said, you also can't analyze simply kicks vs handballs either. As generally the more skilled players attempt higher degree of difficulty kicks. A couple of perfect examples to that are Eddie Betts and Stevie J. They do things a ruckman would never even think is an option. It doesn't always come off, but attempting them drops their %'s compared to if they took the easy option all the time.....which most ruckman do. So much so, some rucks dont even attempt a kick at all!

So that being said, use %'s to compare, sure, but watch the game to get the whole picture.

FWIW, Cripps goal kicking efforts over his career - 23.32 (42%)...or 33% if you go by AFL.com.au stats which include complete misses.

So yes, i stand by my comments that Cripps is average by foot....which is probably doing him a favour.

Note: This does not mean Cripps is not an elite player, nor does it mean i love him any less. Even superman had his kryptonite.

Remember that disposal efficiency has some extraordinary qualifications: An effective long kick is one that is at least 40 metres to a 50/50 or better for the team. An effective short kick is one that results in a teammate's possession provided that teammate was the intended target of the kicker (so, if Levi intercepts a short kick intended for Charlie, it's an ineffective disposal). A handball to a teammate that hits the intended target to the team's advantage is recorded as an effective handball.

Hoiking the ball across the body to a 50/50 contest counts as an effective disposal and I reckon Gibbs does a hell of a lot more of those than Cripps.  In contrast, a handball that is too fast or not anticipated by the intended recipient is not an effective disposal.

A kick under no pressure is an easier skill to execute than a handball (or kick) taken while being tackled or under threat of being tackled.  I would argue that, when Cripps evades the tackler and has time to steady, his kicking is as good as anyone's.

[kruddler]

Again, all reasons i didn't bring up disposal efficiency....you did. 

No comment about Cripps goal kicking efficiency?

[shawny]

Lets not forget that its bloody hard to be accurate by hand let alone by foot when in a congested situation. Just ask Judd.

His deposal efficiency must have dropped a fair way when he had to become a contested player rather then an outside runner in his WC days.

I remember Juddy blindly handballing 15-20 metres forward out of a pack time and time again sometimes it hit a teammate other times it didn't and would land in the opposition hands. Its used to frustrate me a bit but as he did it time and time again it dawned on my (from the comfort of my couch) it must be a lot harder then it seems to use the ball cleanly when blokes have arms on you and in Judds case were hanging off him.

Put in this way I would rate Cripps general field kicking as clean as anyone in our team. His goal kicking has been below par but that's it IMO.

       

[LP]

Lets not forget that its bloody hard to be accurate by hand let alone by foot when in a congested situation. Just ask Judd.

His deposal efficiency must have dropped a fair way when he had to become a contested player rather then an outside runner in his WC days.

I remember Juddy blindly handballing 15-20 metres forward out of a pack time and time again sometimes it hit a teammate other times it didn't and would land in the opposition hands. Its used to frustrate me a bit but as he did it time and time again it dawned on my (from the comfort of my couch) it must be a lot harder then it seems to use the ball cleanly when blokes have arms on you and in Judds case were hanging off him.

Put in this way I would rate Cripps general field kicking as clean as anyone in our team. His goal kicking has been below par but that's it IMO.

It's hard to hit a team-mate with the pill when they are tailing their opponents to the contest.

Cripps is OK over short distances, but he needs to find some better penetration with his foot skills to be able to break up opposition defensive structures. If he can't they can just zone at 30m and he's not going to have an influence. I don't think his goal kicking will be a problem if he has people capable of sharing the midfield load, and he's already showing signs of a preparedness to push forward.

How good was it seeing Dow, Pickett and Garlett hit blokes on the chest with 45m passes? Hawthorn lived off that sort of ball use for a decade, you just cannot defend against it if the right decision is made!