Dobermans

[madbluboy]

If the dog is dangerous to an intruder they're dangerous to your 4 year old.

[Baggers]

If the dog is dangerous to an intruder they're dangerous to your 4 year old.

Not true of a well trained hound. The idea is not to have an attack dog as a family pet but one that firstly seeks to frighten off potential intruders with a good bark.

EB1 threw German Shepherds into the mix and although I've never had one friends who've had them speak really highly of them, but as for what I wrote before, training and good selection apply, which they made sure of.

[cookie2]

Personally I worry about the idea of guard dogs in suburbia and would be looking at other forms of security first e.g. fences, automatic gates etc. "If they're well trained" is a term used at times but to train a dog really well needs the kind of expertise all people don't have by any means.

[DJC]

Some random thoughts on dogs.

You don't need a guard dog to deter people who have bad intent.  Any dog that barks when it should will do the job.  My late brother was a cop for 20 years and he was adamant that households with dogs were rarely targeted by burglars, etc.  Neighbours' houses are also less likely to be targeted.

Since adulthood, I've had an Irish Setter, a pig dog (Bull Terrier - Rottweiler mix) and two Staffordshire Bull Terriers.  They were all socialised, well-trained, good with people and protective of their family when necessary.  The Irish Setter was most likely to go from warning to action and once attacked a cow that was charging me.  The cow was t1ts up 

My daughter has a young Ridgeback and she has had to get a dog whisperer's advice to get the dog to realise that it isn't responsible for protecting the children.  It's all about understanding pack behaviour and making sure the dog realises that it comes last in the pecking order.

Whatever breed you decide on, make sure that it is not prone to congenital disorders - and that includes behavioural issues.  Some breeds, Staffies and Shepherds are prone to obsessive-compulsive behaviour. The breeder should certify that the dog doesn't have hip displasia, etc.

Socialisation and training are vital as is being able to provide the right amount of exercise and stimulation.  A bored dog can be a destructive dog.

Finally, think about getting two dogs.

[madbluboy]

Not true of a well trained hound.

Every owner of a dog that has hurt or killed a child says it was out of their dog's character. Like DJC said you just need the dog to bark not rip the intruder's throat out.

I have only ever had border collies who are the most intelligent dogs in the world but are high energy so you need to have kids.

[LP]

Every owner of a dog that has hurt or killed a child says it was out of their dog's character. Like DJC said you just need the dog to bark not rip the intruder's throat out.

I have only ever had border collies who are the most intelligent dogs in the world but are high energy so you need to have kids.

Agreed, any dog that can stand on the ground and look a kid square and fair in the eyes is a risk. Dogs have only one way to express displeasure in something and it involves teeth. Secondly, the best dog in the world can have a bad day, a headache, a bruise, some pain, the sh1ts up! Large dogs should not be left in the custody of small children, full stop!

I had a friend who had two Rotties, raised together under identical circumstances. One developed a personality disorder and had to be put down. Basically as soon as the owner left the house the dog decided it was boss and would growl and snarl at the wife and kids if they tried to get it off the coach or out of the house. Not something you want from a dog that's taller than the rest of your family.

[ElwoodBlues1]

People need to understand that larger Dogs like German Shepherds, Rotties, Dobermans etc are dominant breed dogs and function in a  pecking order system within the family and with outsiders. When you train them they have to adopt a position in the family and that has to always be at the bottom of the tree if you want full obedience....a dominant breed dog will assume the No 2 position in the household to the master if left to its own devices..that cant happen when you have children.

When you eyeball a German Shepherd you issue a challenge to its dominance, when my family eyeball our dog, speak firmly  she knows whose boss and drops her gaze, wags her tail and looks for a command, when a stranger eyeballs her or another dominant breed does similar she stands her ground and wont tolerate any threatening behaviour...thats how they operate and you cant leave non family members/strangers with dominant breed dogs alone.

Larger Dogs are for adult families....they present a risk for small children. trained or untrained, when in doubt and it doesnt matter how clever they are they will revert to their natural behaviour which wont include many warnings like barking...larger dogs tend to attack first with a throaty growl and save the barking for later and thats why they are more dangerous especially for strangers. small children etc...

[Mav]

All this stuff about pecking order, alphas, and pack hierarchy is a bit passé.  It emanated from the 70s when a biologist observed wolves which were in captivity in a wildlife refuge.  As wolves made themselves scarce when humans went into the wild, this was a rare opportunity.  What this guy saw was that the wolves acted like hardened prisoners.  They fought each other to be boss and the boss had to withstand constant challenges.  This researcher then theorised that dogs operated in the same way as they were, after all, descended from wolves.  Back then, domestic animals such as dogs and cats weren't considered to be worthy of study, so this theory wasn't challenged.  Dog trainers were happy with this 'pack leader' theory as it merely validated their way of doing their thing - using harsh discipline to show the dogs who is boss.

In fact, the behaviour of the wolves wasn't reflective of their behaviour in the wild let alone how dogs behave.  In the wild, wolves live in family units.  Neither the father nor the mother is the 'alpha'.  They lead most of the time because they have the experience but the young wolves will take the lead on occasions if they're the best hunters, etc.. There was no 'alpha' in the sense of dominating access to resources (food, shelter, sex) with the others taking turns after the alpha was finished according to the hierarchy.  Quite the contrary - the parents provided for their progeny.  The wolves in the refuge were males who weren't related but were forced to share limited space and resources.

Researchers have noted that packs of stray dogs just don't form stable hierarchies and there is no domination of resources.

Dogs have been domesticated for millenia.  The process of domestication has changed dogs massively.  Selective breeding took wolves that were unusually friendly towards humans and reinforced this quality.  A Russian researcher showed how this process would have worked by running a breeding program with Silver Foxes over 40 generations.  Silver Foxes are extremely avoidant of contact with humans in the wild but he ended up with foxes which had radically changed in looks and behaviour.  Not only did the foxes end up craving contact with humans but also they changed physically to appear much cuter and cuddlier while their brains grew smaller.

Dogs love eye contact with humans.  Both the dog and it's master experience a release of oxytocin, the bonding drug, when their eyes meet.  On the other hand, a wolf, even a pup, will not experience any positive feelings from eye contact.  However much a handler tries to habituate a pup to eye contact, it won't improve the situation. 

In other words, dogs bond with humans in a way that wolves simply can't.  Dogs don't become part of the family because they simply slot into a hierarchical structure that mimics their "natural" structure.  They bond with us as they would their own family.

Please ignore dimwits like the self-styled "Dog Whisperer", César Milan, who run with this nonsense about being the alpha or pack leader.

Of course, selective breeding has had a massive impact upon how various breeds act.  Breeders have heightened territoriality in some breeds but suppressed it in others.  And of course dogs will have different levels of dominance or submission even in the same litter.

My dog is large but breeders have strived for over 2000 years to ensure the breed has little territoriality and is kind to all mankind.  In its area of origin, it is commonly used as a living blanket by young children.  He's a good watchdog in the sense that he barks loudly if strangers approach and he appears very excited, so couriers and meter-readers refuse to come in.  But he's a bad guard dog as he just wants a stroke from them if they do come in.  If you want a guard dog, you need a breed with more territoriality.  But that trait means they'll jealously guard humans, bones and toys as much as real estate and unwanted attacks are an unfortunate side-effect.

[LP]

I think this thread basically summarize the situation, having a dog to act as a guard dog is a double edge sword, especially if you have the wrong domestic arrangements, limited time to invest and the wrong breed.

The concern in Woodstock's opening post is the line;

With all that said and given I am away a fair bit in the City while Mrs.Woodstock and our 8 and 4 years olds are at home

If he invests in one of the larger and potentially more timid breeds, note it's timidity leads to aggressive behavior, he'd want to have a lot of time available!

[Mav]

By the way, dominance and aggression aren't necessarily the same thing.  My dog is VERY dominant.  When he was a pup, I was worried that, if left unchecked, his demands would continue to escalate and he would become uncontrollable.  Unfortunately, he transferred his evident love of chomping on his litter mates' back legs to us and no calf was safe.  This caused us to worry that he might not have inherited his breed's key trait.  But with time and socialisation down the dog park, he soon stopped biting and now appears perturbed if his teeth accidently make contact with me.  He still has the same set of demands that he had at the start.  His list of demands hasn't grown and he hasn't become more aggressive while claiming his due.  He simply barks incessantly when he wants to be fed, insists on being fed by hand, requires full access to all parts of the house (once ripping out the dog door when we blocked it off when he was being naughty), steals socks and underwear and takes them to the front door when he wants to go into the front yard, and growls playfully when we try to retrieve them.  But he doesn't get up on any furniture or claim any particular spot in the house and he doesn't steal food or anything else.  He's never so much as growled in anger at anyone in the family or the many children who've approached him to pat him.  The only thing is he likes to hump big dogs and that tends to result in battles, mostly involving barking and wrestling, when the other dog takes offence or tries to turn the tables.  So, he's highly dominant but low in aggression towards humans.