General Discussions

[Lods]

It may be my own experience working in a system that not only dealt with external wrong-doings but accusations of wrong-doing within the system...but one of the things that really annoys me is ‘pre-judging’ an accused because of the way they look, sound or a media reported description of events.

Every accused is entitled to a presumption of innocence and a due process to determine their fate. Every accuser/ victim should also be allowed to tell their story. Sadly, that will always take a bit of courage, especially in relation to sexual assault.

Unless we sit through a court process or listen to a full judgement, we really have no idea.

Yesterday Lehrmann received his due process. Justice Lee was thorough and methodical in his summation and findings. He gave a detailed account based on evidence of every aspect of the evening. Where behaviour seemed strange, he addressed it and gave reasons why it might have occurred. Where things stretched credibility, he called it out. Where evidence was a bit dodgy, he called it out.

He determined on the basis of all probability that a rape did occur. Anyone listening to his summation would find it hard to disagree.
He was clear to point out the difference between a criminal and civil case, and the burden of proof, and that in a criminal case the same finding of guilt may not necessarily have been made.

He was actually quite critical of just about all of the parties involved in the case. He found them all a bit reckless or ‘unreliable’. They were all a bit dubious…but he found Lehrmann was not only dubious but also a ‘rapist’.

Ten and Wilkinson can consider themselves lucky. Justice Lee found Lehrmann was identifiable and therefore ‘defamed’. Had the ‘truth’ aspect failed the other parties would have been looking at a seriously large payout.

As it is the costs of this case will be extensive. Lehrmann will find he may have recovered his ‘hat’…but he will be left with little else.

[madbluboy]

Did Justice Lee come to this conclusion based on his vast experience on the current nightclub/ bar hopping scene?

I think old folk who say things like "One does not
pash"  are completely out of touch with the current climate.

[Thryleon]

Fair enough, and you're basing that assumption on the body of evidence presented to the court or just pure speculation?

She was found comatose on a couch in the Minister's office by an independent witness.  That is not in dispute.

The judge specifically mentioned the number of drinks Lehrmann bought her and the likelihood that she was given more alcohol at Parliament House.  Witnesses testified to the fact that she was nissed as a pewt including being unable to put her shoes on after going through security.

Somehow, Justice Lee's statement that he was “comfortably satisfied” that Higgins was a “very drunk young woman” is far more compelling than some random calling BS 

It's enlightening to read Justice Lee's points of proof that led him to conclude that Lehrmann had raped Higgins.

I saw the footage of Higgins walking through security with lehrmann.  Neither of them were 3 sheets to the wind.

Either there are some serious drugs and alcohol consumed on arrival or the giggling half running into the building Higginsis much better at retaining her composure under the influence than I am.

I dont need a judge to tell me what that footage showed and that was two people who knew exactly what they were getting up to.

[DJC]

Did Justice Lee come to this conclusion based on his vast experience on the current nightclub/ bar hopping scene?

I think old folk who say things like "One does not
pash"  are completely out of touch with the current climate.

A judge’s decision should not be influenced by their life experience.  Their role is to impartially weigh up the evidence presented by witnesses to the exclusion, as far as possible, to their own foreknowledge and beliefs.  The lawyers for both sides would have gone to great lengths to ensure that Justice Lee had a good understanding of nightclubbing behaviour.  That shows in the snippets of evidence referred to in his judgement.

[DJC]

I saw the footage of Higgins walking through security with lehrmann.  Neither of them were 3 sheets to the wind.

Either there are some serious drugs and alcohol consumed on arrival or the giggling half running into the building Higginsis much better at retaining her composure under the influence than I am.

I dont need a judge to tell me what that footage showed and that was two people who knew exactly what they were getting up to.

You must have extraordinary powers of observation to determine people’s intent from a couple of seconds of CCTV footage.

And yet eyewitnesses at the nightclub and security at Parliament House gave evidence that clearly contradicts your assessment of Higgins and Lehrmann’s state of sobriety.

Unless you sat through the entire trial and carefully considered every piece of material evidence and every sentence of testimony from Higgins, Lehrmann and all of the witnesses, you’re not really in a position to dispute Justice Lee’s findings.

Of course you can have an opinion, but it’s not worth much in this particular context.

[Lods]

I think we probably bring some of our own biases to these issues.
Did folks who think the judgement was a bit dubious watch all of Justice Lee's summation?

[Baggers]

Did Justice Lee come to this conclusion based on his vast experience on the current nightclub/ bar hopping scene?

I think old folk who say things like "One does not
pash"  are completely out of touch with the current climate.

Well I've followed this thread pretty closely and can't find anyone saying, 'One does not pash...' Even in this old bloke's day, we did plenty of 'pashing' at the disco, some times with a few different gals, but that did not signal, 'She wants a r**t.'

But from what you're saying MBB (& 3 Leos), if a person is three sheets to the wind, they're fair game, regardless of what they might say if sober. To moi this is not so much a legal issue but in fact goes far deeper than that... beyond the 'law.'

I must be quaintly old fashioned, but I think not. Simply put, and perhaps it was my upbringing, if a woman is drunk you look after her and protect her from sexual predators. And I have done this, as a young fella (and just as horny as the next) through to present day. In fact I find men who prey on drunk people to be cowardly and predatory. And this attitude is not righteousness (though to a predator it would seem so), it's just common bloody decency and a basic male responsibility. That drunk woman could be your mother, sister or daughter... how would you like the men around her to behave?

[Thryleon]

You must have extraordinary powers of observation to determine people’s intent from a couple of seconds of CCTV footage.

And yet eyewitnesses at the nightclub and security at Parliament House gave evidence that clearly contradicts your assessment of Higgins and Lehrmann’s state of sobriety.

Unless you sat through the entire trial and carefully considered every piece of material evidence and every sentence of testimony from Higgins, Lehrmann and all of the witnesses, you’re not really in a position to dispute Justice Lee’s findings.

Of course you can have an opinion, but it’s not worth much in this particular context.

No, I think you misunderstand what Im talking about.  I watched the interview with Lehrmann that showed footage of Brittany Higgins and Lehrmann walking into their office of employment.  I have worked in the hospitality industry, I have my RSA and I have interacted with my fair share of people inebriated and not.

In my experience, watching footage of the people we are talking about, I was not of the opinion that Brittany was intoxicated to the point of being comatose or anywhere near that point.  In fact, she looked like she was in good spirits.  I understand that this can and will change quickly, but they looked VERY much in control of their faculties.

[Thryleon]

Well I've followed this thread pretty closely and can't find anyone saying, 'One does not pash...' Even in this old bloke's day, we did plenty of 'pashing' at the disco, some times with a few different gals, but that did not signal, 'She wants a r**t.'

But from what you're saying MBB (& 3 Leos), if a person is three sheets to the wind, they're fair game, regardless of what they might say if sober. To moi this is not so much a legal issue but in fact goes far deeper than that... beyond the 'law.'

I must be quaintly old fashioned, but I think not. Simply put, and perhaps it was my upbringing, if a woman is drunk you look after her and protect her from sexual predators. And I have done this, as a young fella (and just as horny as the next) through to present day. In fact I find men who prey on drunk people to be cowardly and predatory. And this attitude is not righteousness (though to a predator it would seem so), it's just common bloody decency and a basic male responsibility. That drunk woman could be your mother, sister or daughter... how would you like the men around her to behave?

I think you have misunderstood my position.  I don't believe ms Higgins was anywhere near as inebriated as people are insinuating.  I think she and he ended up doing something that they were dismissed for, and have been in reputation fix mode ever since.  Her way to get around that, was to sling mud somewhere else, it has stuck, because he is a potato and was already covered in dirt.

[DJC]

Well I've followed this thread pretty closely and can't find anyone saying, 'One does not pash...' Even in this old bloke's day, we did plenty of 'pashing' at the disco, some times with a few different gals, but that did not signal, 'She wants a r**t.'

But from what you're saying MBB (& 3 Leos), if a person is three sheets to the wind, they're fair game, regardless of what they might say if sober. To moi this is not so much a legal issue but in fact goes far deeper than that... beyond the 'law.'

I must be quaintly old fashioned, but I think not. Simply put, and perhaps it was my upbringing, if a woman is drunk you look after her and protect her from sexual predators. And I have done this, as a young fella (and just as horny as the next) through to present day. In fact I find men who prey on drunk people to be cowardly and predatory. And this attitude is not righteousness (though to a predator it would seem so), it's just common bloody decency and a basic male responsibility. That drunk woman could be your mother, sister or daughter... how would you like the men around her to behave?

Then there’s Higgins’ remark about “***ing a log.

The quote MBB mentioned is “one does not pash passively” and ‘passively’ gives a completely different meaning.

The problem is that neither Lehrmann or Higgins are likeable characters and both are motivated by self interest.  And then there’s the holier than thou media personalities and networks!

Justice Lee’s “omnishambles” is very apt.