The Defence

[LP]

[member=153]LP[/member]
Sure Jones might be playing to instruction...(I doubt it because being 25m out from the contest is in no man's land. Can't tackle players coming out of the contest because he's too far away.....but he's too close so the ball can still be kicked over his head.)
But...even if he is playing to instruction...he needs to be smart enough to know the risk/reward result of his positioning.

As I stated, what he did in that instance was wrong, but worng in implementation not necessarily in tactic if he is instructed to intercept at all costs.

If he was instructed to hold that ground at that spacing it was tactically wrong, but I'd assert the bigger error was for the fat side players to get sucked across the middle into the contest was a even bigger evil. I note our VFL coach stated as much about LOB last weekend, failing to hold his ground wide of the contest, it's a fundamental error.

A bigger question for Carlton fans might be. Are we doing this because of the shortcomings of our midfield, do our outside players feel obliged to get in and help the slower types in Cripps, Walsh and Ed? Do we have the midfield balance wrong?

What Healy and Lyon complain about is a smokescreen, a diversion from the truth, I've no idea why but we can speculate.

[madbluboy]

As a Plowman basher I think he has been okay the last couple of weeks however....

From level 3 at Marvel I watched him closely against the dogs and he was deliberately giving his man 15 metres to dare them to kick it to him, backing himself to get to the contest and spoil.

That works fine if you're playing on fringe players but that's not going to work on the elite guys who always smash him

[kruddler]

As a Plowman basher I think he has been okay the last couple of weeks however....

From level 3 at Marvel I watched him closely against the dogs and he was deliberately giving his man 15 metres to dare them to kick it to him, backing himself to get to the contest and spoil.

That works fine if you're playing on fringe players but that's not going to work on the elite guys who always smash him

Its also a tactic to get your opponent further away from goal.
Give them some space and they will increase it.... close up that space again... and they will increase it again. Eventually they are up around the wing and will not hurt you on the scoreboard.

[kruddler]

What Healy and Lyon complain about is a smokescreen, a diversion from the truth, I've no idea why but we can speculate.

Where do I start with this??

I don't know what their agenda is, but they must have one. What they are talking about (although we all agree is a problem) cannot be the real problem. Why would someone be speaking the truth with no hidden agenda?

:o  : 

[PaulP]

Teague has stated many times that he wants the boys playing on instinct, and that he believes they have good skills and wants them to take advantage of that. It has been discussed that he keeps strategy and game plan mechanics to a minimum (Diesel joked when he was working for us recently that "Teaguey doesn't do too much."). One potential problem with that is too many of the players want to do the flashy stuff, and not enough want to get their hands dirty.

The other issue is that you would hope the players have good instincts if you want them playing on that level. I think Teague has gone too far in the freedom direction, and maybe not all the boys have good enough instincts, and may need more comprehensive instructions.

[LP]

Where do I start with this??

I don't know what their agenda is, but they must have one. What they are talking about (although we all agree is a problem) cannot be the real problem. Why would someone be speaking the truth with no hidden agenda?

That's where your gross assumption goes wrong, you assume we agree!

As mentioned earlier, the stark difference between what the critics say and what a club like Melbourne do is exposed in the two very video clips they offer as a comparison between Carlton and Melbourne, as evidence those clips are not referentially consistent with the verbal complaints and critiques that Healy and Lyon make. It's obvious that Melbourne have excess defensive numbers, they even highlight it the Melbourne numbers in the clip!

That observation by the way is quite consistent with what both of us have been saying in defence of Plowman for weeks and weeks now. If Lyon and Healy are deemed to be right we must be at least partially wrong about Plowman.

I doubt we are wrong about Plowman, and I'm sure no matter what Jones or Doc do they more often than not will lose if the contest is 4 versus 6, regardless of where they position themselves!

[ElwoodBlues1]

Lyon is crowing because the Dees are flying and its down back where they have improved so he can use May and Lever to compare with our defense which is still work in progress and not settled.
You usually have to build a good defensive unit first before you can really push up the ladder and we are still getting the pieces together with newbies like Stocker, Parks learning the ropes.
Marchbank is probably the missing link in terms of inbetween size defenders to help cover for Jones wandering around and like I said it may be time when McGovern is fit and maybe Charlie is back to bite the bullet and get McGovern down back in that Jeremy Howe type role so Jones can stay stay at home more.
Plowman does get some tough gigs because he is that inbetween size defender at 191cm and its probably time some of that work got shared with other players ie McGovern 191cm and Parks 192cm when he is ready and learned more about senior AFL footy.

[LP]

A bit off topic I know, but related in a way.

AFL / AFL Media and AFL Coaching has become so nepotistic I can't trust any of it any more. The AFL Executive was hell bent on breaking this trend, bloated past players earning bloated wages for life in burgeoning jobs for the boys scenarios. Now it seems the AFL has given up and put it in the too hard basket, and is perhaps in a situation that is even worse than before, of course it may never have been a genuine attempt!

Noble will be the next to fall!

Fans will claim that is proof blokes like Noble, Bolton and Fagan are high risk and are likely to fail. But I'd assert they fail not purely because of ability, but because they are working within a system that doesn't favour them, they are outsiders, they will always be outsiders! The AFL perhaps missed a trick, in that it should have put them all at one club and removed the influence of the old boys! Maybe this is Tasmania's way in!

How do you get access to an unequivocal unbiased opinion in the AFL media?

This whole thread is built on the argy-bargy between two former Melbourne FC greats, the week before we play them!

Who should we trust?

[PaulP]

You can keep moving the goalposts until doomsday finding a reason(s) why coaches fail. Plenty of coaches that have played at the top level have failed. If the old boys were that keen for their mates to coach, there's plenty of them around. Wasn't the Shinboner of the Century on the committee that selected Noble ?

There is no logical reason why someone who has played up to SANFL, WAFL etc. level can't be a successful coach. Certain dubious types whose idea of football knowledge is essentially a bunch of rote learned sporting cliches from 1973 will tell you that the players won't "respect" someone who hasn't played AFL, but if that's the case I suggest the problem is the immaturity and naivety of the players themselves. Why would they respect this type of person if they are an assistant coach, instead of senior coach ? What's the difference ?

[kruddler]

That's where your gross assumption goes wrong, you assume we agree!

What we all agree on is that what Jones did was wrong.

If you can't agree on that, then i don't know what to say.