The EV thread

[ElwoodBlues1]

I was listening to the wireless the other day when the motoring program came on.  The usual expert (Toby Hagon I think) was talking about the influx of cheaper Chinese EVs and the impact they’re starting to have on car sales.

A talkback caller asked about the Chinese EVs being used for surveillance and intelligence gathering.  To my surprise, Toby agreed with the caller and proceeded to itemise the ways that modern vehicles could be used to collect information about their drivers and what gets caught on dash cams.  AI means that it’s now possible to process all of that data in the hope of gleaning something useful.

I’m sure that bad actors and other nefarious characters will be licking their lips in anticipation of finding out what I’m up to.  Good thing the 79 Series has bugger all in the way of electronics ?

https://www.drive.com.au/news/new-chines...australia/
Its an invasion without a shot being fired, the lack of regulation in Australia will see the end of familiar brands and the Government are letting it all play out to help with their emission targets. Tesla have been forced again to drop their prices and I reckon the smart move is to hold out for as long as possible buying an EV as prices are just going to keep on falling and as an investment purchased today your EV is going to be a depreciation nightmare over the next couple of years.
I agree about the surveillance and intelligence angle....eg you look at the SAIC group and Chery group and it all leads back to Government or a State run company and thats not reassuring when it comes to advanced industrial espionage possibilities.
Joe Biden agrees....https://www.drive.com.au/news/us-to-investigate-chinese-cars-national-security/

[northernblue]

Ev has nothing to do with anything.
The gov of China may or may not be wholesome and friendly but I’m sure I saw an article earlier this year on abc about data collection that Toyota was enjoying.
I don’t think it’s nesisarily China but any company with tech is doing their utmost to rape and pillage our data, what do they say about Google… you are the product…
I’d like to believe that Apple is better but to be honest…

[LP]

So if I get a bearing on all the info circulating on the internet, Chinese hardware and Russian websites are benign, but vaccines have microscopic integrated circuits in them that track our every mood and alter our thought process!

The biggest thing to worry about in regards to Apple, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and the most predictable trait, is that they sell out to the highest bigger without any regard to morality.

[Thryleon]

So if I get a bearing on all the info circulating on the internet, Chinese hardware and Russian websites are benign, but vaccines have microscopic integrated circuits in them that track our every mood and alter our thought process!

The biggest thing to worry about in regards to Apple, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and the most predictable trait, is that they sell out to the highest bigger without any regard to morality.

They probably would sell that to the Russians if it were profitable enough.

They'd do it via a proxy though.  All of them are the same.  The Chinese don't want the data of mum amd dad for espionage.  They don't want it for any sort of faux invasion (they'd surely hit Taiwan first).  All they are doing is exactly what Google and Apple do but be scared of that big bad wolf and sell your soul to America's corps.  They're the good guys after all who only sell and farm your personal data for future marketing campaigns and profit....

The whole story is designed to keep you as a client.  No one gives a crap what people talk about in their cars or how long sitting in traffic it takes to drop the kids off at sports.  If you want to worry about Chinese espionage take a drive through box hill.

China's invasion started 30 years ago. Theyve bought up entire suburbs, but im not sure how driven by government these people are.

[LP]

Putting hardware in place isn't about the public, it's about using the public as the distribution method. As you should well know working in IT, the car outside your office can be listening to devices on your network, and that widget / device on the accounts payable desk might not be yours to control. Some $2 novelty gadget the Billy bought Betty for Valentines Day!

We were recently alerted to stop using circuit boards manufactured in China, these are supposed to be bare boards without components, but security groups have found serial decode chips embedded within multilayer boards. You have to X-ray these boards to find them. Tiny chips capable of parroting away your data, and they cost a few cents per thousand devices, they are inconsequential like gains of sand.

Do you really think a country that spends billions of nuclear weapons or military hardware will blink at the trivial cost of adding millions of serial decode chips to devices distributed everywhere? Billions of such tiny devices would cost less than one warhead.

As you point out it's not just about military or politics, actually it's probably more about stealing IP, because that is the high cost high value proposition.

All nations would be doing this stuff given the opportunity, the naivety is thinking they wouldn't!

[Thryleon]

Putting hardware in place isn't about the public, it's about using the public as the distribution method. As you should well know working in IT, the car outside your office can be listening to devices on your network, and that widget / device on the accounts payable desk might not be yours to control. Some $2 novelty gadget the Billy bought Betty for Valentines Day!

We were recently alerted to stop using circuit boards manufactured in China, these are supposed to be bare boards without components, but security groups have found serial decode chips embedded within multilayer boards. You have to X-ray these boards to find them. Tiny chips capable of parroting away your data, and they cost a few cents per thousand devices, they are inconsequential like gains of sand.

Do you really think a country that spends billions of nuclear weapons or military hardware will blink at the trivial cost of adding millions of serial decode chips to devices distributed everywhere? Billions of such tiny devices would cost less than one warhead.

As you point out it's not just about military or politics, actually it's probably more about stealing IP, because that is the high cost high value proposition.

All nations would be doing this stuff given the opportunity, the naivety is thinking they wouldn't!

the arrogance is thinking they would. No car is listening to devices on my network, your car usually isn't connected to home wifi.  It might pair with your phone but when it's off that's that. 

Your point about the micro chips is important but guess what.  When 90% of everything you own is made in PRC from Australian materials or something of that nature they don't have to work too hard to infiltrate.  They've got tik tok on most kids phones around the nation.  What's the point of hitting the car when there is still that trivial little bit of important detail that they require am exfiltration method.  The chips are useless and more data doesn't equate to more information.  It's useless.

East vs West they're all farming data for the same purpose.  They all want to sell you more crap and the apps are designed to manipulate you into buying more crap you don't need because it's cheap and available.

Why go to the effort of infiltrating households when you can simply buy the data directly from Google or Apple?

It's cheaper and easier.

[LP]

the arrogance is thinking they would. No car is listening to devices on my network, your car usually isn't connected to home wifi.  It might pair with your phone but when it's off that's that.

No connection is needed to listen to unencrypted streams, the target data isn't part of Google, Apple or Meta. You are thinking like someone who believes Google tracking your TV habits or online purchases actually matters.

The ICs / Chips of foreign powers aren't inserted randomly, they are located at intersections where data is not encrypted. The job of the chip is to intercept the streamed data and rebroadcast it in a way that can be monitored, if you know what to listen for.

The target data is mostly IP, R&D, Military, strategic Political or economic information, and in insecure premises they can mine it freely, it's the reason why audited high security now requires air-gapped workstations in rooms built like Faraday cages, most all companies and individuals fail to pass the audit.

To do the techno approach successfully you need someway to intercept unencrypted data(transmit), and then you need someway to access it if you can(listen). The air-gap / Faraday cage is meant to stop transmission.

The next most common method of data collection is extortion, usually making threats towards family and friends who remain in foreign locations. That is how the last big IP hack occurred here in Melb, two Post-Grad from China were blackmailed by the State to collect and forward on many gigabytes of classified  / restricted data.

[kruddler]

Data leads to information.
Information is power.

There may not be a purpose for it.....yet....but its better to have it and not need it, than vice versa.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Europe joining the Tariff war on cheap Chinese EV's.
https://apnews.com/article/european-unio...304fbdbaa5
Of course with so many European cars being made in China now Id expect the Chinese to react and make those vehicles more costly to produce as well as ramp up subsidies to their own vehicle makers to offset any tariffs.
Here in Aus though with no car manufacturing industry anymore and Albo wanting to get loved up with the Chinese in other areas of Industry, Resources etc Id expect no change and prices to keep falling for EV's...

[Thryleon]

Data leads to information.
Information is power.

There may not be a purpose for it.....yet....but its better to have it and not need it, than vice versa.

Maybe, but you still need to store it.  The whole thing is economics, and all that changes is where your money ends up.  Call me a cynic but lets face it, these things are all not about your data.  If you dont want anyone to have your data, you have to go off grid.