AFL Rd 21 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs St Kilda

[kruddler]

I hope fans are starting to see why we need both Pitto and TDK.

How we manage them in the future will be critical to our success, if we'd only had one today Marshall wouldn't have just got the stats he probably would have got the chocolates as well!

It's Pitto keeping up the physical pressure, that allows TDK to gain the momentum, no respite for the opposition.

I agree Hollands had a good game, but ignoring the result his direct opponent was probably the BoG.

We certainly do not NEED them both.
There is advantages to having them both.

However, this was never a question of need. It has always been a question of 'can we afford'.....to have them both in the team.
This has almost exclusively been with Harry and Charlie in the side at the same time....but partially with Jack as well....but he can play smaller so not quite the same thing.

The fact we don't have Harry available (and Jack) means we must play them both.
If we have both Harry and Jack available, playing both hurts our team balance.

The Carlton who has won 7 games in a row (it still feels weird saying that) has done so on the back of constant pressure (feels even weirder saying that!). It hasn't been because of a standout performance of a Cripps, or Charlie that has won us the game. It has been the 'team' that has won us the game.
This happens to largely coincide with Harry going down and us having to play 'smaller' by default.

Now whether you take Harry out, or 1 of the rucks out, the end result is basically the same. You are smaller, you can run, chase, tackle and pressure more. Its not saying Harry doesn't chase, but is he going to catch as many people as say Fogarty, Martin or Motlop who essentially take his place? No.

Ultimately, the question needs to be asked.
Are we better with 2 rucks?
or
Are we better with 2 key forwards?

My answer has always been the latter, and i think most will agree.
So then its a 'who plays backup ruck?'
That can come from whoever is in the team at the time.....my preference is for Jack because he is simply better at it than anyone else be that Young, Harry, Charlie, McGovern....but it doesn't have to be Jack.

[ElwoodBlues1]

didn’t like that honest insight from Voss thought it wasn’t needed. What did that achieve other then make the kid who has struggled to see any faith shown from Voss being started as a sub countless times feel like he is still very much on the outer. He even cracked the joke they would rip the stands down if we subbed him so he couldn’t do it.

I would have preferred Voss to use that game to generate as much confidence for Dow from it as possible with no negatives but instead now feels like not much has changed.

Obvious Voss is still not a fan and Dow will be delisted at seasons end which as a depth mid on min contract I would be happy to retain him but don’t see it happening.

Thats how I surmised it Shawny...I have been a fan of Dow since his U18 days and wondered why his numbers in the twos didnt equate to games in the seniors but the first half showed why Voss has been reluctant to play and trust him beyond being used as the sub. He kicked that goal in the second half which was good for him but you would probably expect that to be kicked by a senior player in that scenario nine times out of ten.
I think he makes a reasonable sub who can give you a burst of possessions and some run and carry but I still dont see him as a four quarter midfielder who I would trust vs decent opposition not to cost you a couple of goals through lack of composure.
He relies on weight of possession numbers rather than quality of possessions at the moment and that hasnt changed since his U18 days.

[ElwoodBlues1]

Pity we can't make top 4. If we could, we would be some massive flag chance.

Bulldogs 2016, finished 7th and rolled straight through.......I see playing a final interstate as the main obstacle but not insurmountable.

[kruddler]

Thats how I surmised it Shawny...I have been a fan of Dow since his U18 days and wondered why his numbers in the twos didnt equate to games in the seniors but the first half showed why Voss has been reluctant to play and trust him beyond being used as the sub. He kicked that goal in the second half which was good for him but you would probably expect that to be kicked by a senior player in that scenario nine times out of ten.
I think he makes a reasonable sub who can give you a burst of possessions and some run and carry but I still dont see him as a four quarter midfielder who I would trust vs decent opposition not to cost you a couple of goals through lack of composure.
He relies on weight of possession numbers rather than quality of possessions at the moment and that hasnt changed since his U18 days.

By the same token though, it all depends on how Dow takes it.

It can be taken as...
- If i put in the effort, and get results, i will be rewarded with game time. This is fair, and i will ensure i get results so i get games.
or
- The coach doesn't like me, wants to drop me first chance he gets. Why bother.

Now both scenarios are equally as likely. If the player chooses the 'weak' path of option 2, then he probably isn't for us anyway.

[Lods]

Just a guess.
I wouldn't be surprised if a decision on Dow has already been made, quite amicably and honest, in fact.
A tough, frank conversation, that lets Dow know that if he wants to play at senior level he's behind a few already and opportunities will also be given to younger players ahead of him, so Carlton might not be the best option.

Dow's been told that he's free to look around, and while we're down a few players we'll give him some game time to show what he has to offer other clubs.
Works to the advantage of both player and club.
We get a good trade, and Dow finds some regular game time at a new home.
The only danger is we may have a few disgruntled supporters if he has a good end to the year.

But of course nothing is ever set in stone and minds can change...pretty much as the sub switch changed yesterday.

It's a funny one because we kind of got a glimpse of reasons he hasn't been picked in the first half...and yet he showed in the second half that it may be that he just needs some consistent game time to show his best.
He seems popular with players and a large percentage of supporters...you rarely see a response like the crowd gave him after his goal.

[pinot]

I have Dow in front of Kennedy at the moment. Due to his durability and is showing he is improving as he is maturing.

He is becoming very strong around the hips and gaining alot of confidence in his ability I dont think we have seen the ceiling in Dow.

[madbluboy]

I have Dow in front of Kennedy at the moment. Due to his durability and is showing he is improving as he is maturing.

He is becoming very strong around the hips and gaining alot of confidence in his ability I dont think we have seen the ceiling in Dow.

It wouldn't be difficult to be in front of Kennedy at the moment.

[pinot]

It wouldn't be difficult to be in front of Kennedy at the moment.

What I meant to say if both were fit and in form - I would go for Dow his burst of speed out of congestion is devastating at times.

Kennedy is the superior kick and more hard nosed the type of player Vossy adores. But Dow is more reliable and someone you can pick in your best 22 most weeks and reliably. IMO of course.

[ElwoodBlues1]

With Cerra, Walsh and Kennedy to return, I cant see Paddy staying in the 22 but he might be the ideal sub where he has proven handy in his many games in that role.
Got no doubt that Voss being old school and a hardnosed coalface mid by trade favors the Kennedy, Ed Curnow meat and veg type players...

[kruddler]

Just a guess.
I wouldn't be surprised if a decision on Dow has already been made, quite amicably and honest, in fact.
A tough, frank conversation, that lets Dow know that if he wants to play at senior level he's behind a few already and opportunities will also be given to younger players ahead of him, so Carlton might not be the best option.

Dow's been told that he's free to look around, and while we're down a few players we'll give him some game time to show what he has to offer other clubs.
Works to the advantage of both player and club.
We get a good trade, and Dow finds some regular game time at a new home.
The only danger is we may have a few disgruntled supporters if he has a good end to the year.

But of course nothing is ever set in stone and minds can change...pretty much as the sub switch changed yesterday.

It's a funny one because we kind of got a glimpse of reasons he hasn't been picked in the first half...and yet he showed in the second half that it may be that he just needs some consistent game time to show his best.
He seems popular with players and a large percentage of supporters...you rarely see a response like the crowd gave him after his goal.

He was interviewed after the game and asked about him playing and finally getting a full game in the middle. He said something along the lines of...its a tough midfield, we've got a few injuries, so im just trying to make the most of my opportunities.

He said most of that without cracking a smile. Now he's not the most smiley type of guy at the best of times, and he may have been nervous because he hasn't done a lot of media, but to me it appeared like it was very bitter sweet for him.
He 'knows' he can contribute, but he knows that he can't get the chance here. So he'll take what he can get, but the cards are stamped.