God help me - the Test Cricket thread

[capcom]

I have a display for my stuff and on one shelf are a pair of RH gloves and in each hand are brand new Kookaburra balls, test and one day.

https://www.carltonsc.com/index.php?acti...topic=5301

They weren't cheap and that was 20 years ago

[LP]

[member=153]LP[/member] Perhaps SG manufactures cricket balls for finishing by BCB.  Their website indicates diminishing English involvement in manufacture as you go down the range.  I can imagine a wizened old gaffer sitting at a scarred workbench and lovingly stitching Dukes balls destined for Test cricket.  I hope he has an apprentice 

Not surprised, I remember the doco covering a whole bunch of supply issues.

For example cattle have changed over the years, cowhides get thicker, thinner or change characteristics subject to breeding practises, so sourcing the right leather is becoming a big issue. Not surprising when you hear it mentioned, everything we humans do to "make stuff better" has some form of unintended impact.

[dodge]

Nice display, Capcom.  I think the international balls are still hand made >$120 each (possibly $150 by now).  The 2 piece balls that we play with are $50+ each.  This season with all games being one dayers, it is expensive!

As an aside, a lot of comps have the first couple of grades playing in coloured clothes for one dayers.  The have now reverted to whites, as Kookaburra don't have enough stock of white balls to cover the number of one dayers!

[laj]

This bowling group has shown on several occasions they cannot get the job done on the last day, especially Lyon.  Should have won the last two tests, but didn't get close in either on a spinning deck. 

Think Stokes in Ashes test as well.

They need to get a bit of snarl into the attack.

The fish rots at the head. Paine is a poor, panicky captain and the players played in that ,ould with great intent. What were his plans, field placings terrible, bowling plans, who knows. Worst captain since Yallop. On the other side Rahane drags a side very depleted, that's used 20 players, to a win they should never have had. That played with great want and intent and got rewarded. We essentially played with two bowlers and two batsmen, with a decent effort from Green. 1-0 up in the series, Paine has the best bowling attack in the world, India’s skipper goes home, they play 20 players, a lot of them no-names, Paine wins the toss three out of four, he stuffs up countless DRS reviews, he drops catches, he misses stumpings, he loses his cool with embarrassing sledging and ultimately he is in charge of a team that loses the unlosable series.

Need to go back to Smith for the SA Tour. Our choices are limited there right now so it's Smith. While never classified as a great captain, he was a good captain, had a ruthless edge good plans, bowlers with in partnerships with constant pressure. We could get the job done on the 5th day. This summer, by contrast, outside the constant use of the short ball how many time did we see consecutive ball in the same spot, a stock ball, building pressure with dots building pressure. What was with Sydney with that constant shot pitched bowling on a dead flat block of concrete. Just like the panicky debacle at Headingley, we were in a dominate position in the last 2 Tests for a draw and a loss against a depleted team. Paine can piss off. Because of Paine's leadership we are out of the top 2 on the WTC Table. top 2 play the final at Lord's. we need to beat SA 2-0. Can do it with Smith, no chance with Paine. Good leaders are everything.

First Test in SA...

Khawaja (short term until we find someone longer term)
Warner
Labuschagne
Smith ©
Pucovski
Green
Carey
Cummins
Richardson
Lyon (just holds his spot)
Hazelwood

[ElwoodBlues1]

The fish rots at the head. Paine is a poor, panicky captain and the players played in that ,ould with great intent. What were his plans, field placings terrible, bowling plans, who knows. Worst captain since Yallop. On the other side Rahane drags a side very depleted, that's used 20 players, to a win they should never have had. That played with great want and intent and got rewarded. We essentially played with two bowlers and two batsmen, with a decent effort from Green. 1-0 up in the series, Paine has the best bowling attack in the world, India’s skipper goes home, they play 20 players, a lot of them no-names, Paine wins the toss three out of four, he stuffs up countless DRS reviews, he drops catches, he misses stumpings, he loses his cool with embarrassing sledging and ultimately he is in charge of a team that loses the unlosable series.

Need to go back to Smith for the SA Tour. Our choices are limited there right now so it's Smith. While never classified as a great captain, he was a good captain, had a ruthless edge good plans, bowlers with in partnerships with constant pressure. We could get the job done on the 5th day. This summer, by contrast, outside the constant use of the short ball how many time did we see consecutive ball in the same spot, a stock ball, building pressure with dots building pressure. What was with Sydney with that constant shot pitched bowling on a dead flat block of concrete. Just like the panicky debacle at Headingley, we were in a dominate position in the last 2 Tests for a draw and a loss against a depleted team. Paine can piss off. Because of Paine's leadership we are out of the top 2 on the WTC Table. top 2 play the final at Lord's. we need to beat SA 2-0. Can do it with Smith, no chance with Paine. Good leaders are everything.

First Test in SA...

Khawaja (short term until we find someone longer term)
Warner
Labuschagne
Smith ©
Pucovski
Green
Carey
Cummins
Richardson
Lyon (just holds his spot)
Hazelwood

Some fair points Jim, I go with Whiteman at the top of the order.....Saffies attack isnt bad with Rabada and fellow quick Anrich Nortje who is express so I would expect making runs will be hard work but their batting is poor with only Elgar and Dekock as consistent players.
Pity Pattinson isnt fit as he would be my ideal Starc replacement although I am sure Starc will play, Lyon is a question mark player
for me, has a bowling average of 40 vs the Saffies and their grounds are not big. He probably starts 1st test but I'd have Swepson in the touring party as insurance.Like to see Labuschange get more overs, he bowls some rubbish but also bowls some decent stuff and you have to try and fiddle wickets every now and then and its an area Paine struggles to do.
Lot of pressure on Warner who has a good record vs the Saffies and of course Smith, you would expect flat hard wickets again in SA which suits their quicks and I think Warner can turn it around in this short series and be a match winner.
I like Carey but is only averaging 34 in 1st class cricket and thats not enough to demand a place IMO....if I was going a new keeper it would be Ingles from WA and Whiteman would be my reserve keeper.
Pucovski with his concussion issues is  going to be tested with the short stuff  and we will see what he is made of, Saffies play it tougher than most teams and with Nortje going at 156kmh in the IPL its going to be a barrage of bouncers IMO so I hope the umpires are of the neutral variety and not all from Saffie land.
I'll go Aus 2-1 as I expect the players under pressure like Warner and Starc to deliver, should be fun to watch too as the Saffie Crowds are a bit like Collingwood ferals and really give it to our blokes and I expect sandpaper sales to increase for the 1st test..?

[laj]

Some fair points Jim, I go with Whiteman at the top of the order.....Saffies attack isnt bad with Rabada and fellow quick Anrich Nortje who is express so I would expect making runs will be hard work but their batting is poor with only Elgar and Dekock as consistent players.
Pity Pattinson isnt fit as he would be my ideal Starc replacement although I am sure Starc will play, Lyon is a question mark player
for me, has a bowling average of 40 vs the Saffies and their grounds are not big. He probably starts 1st test but I'd have Swepson in the touring party as insurance.Like to see Labuschange get more overs, he bowls some rubbish but also bowls some decent stuff and you have to try and fiddle wickets every now and then and its an area Paine struggles to do.
Lot of pressure on Warner who has a good record vs the Saffies and of course Smith, you would expect flat hard wickets again in SA which suits their quicks and I think Warner can turn it around in this short series and be a match winner.
I like Carey but is only averaging 34 in 1st class cricket and thats not enough to demand a place IMO....if I was going a new keeper it would be Ingles from WA and Whiteman would be my reserve keeper.
Pucovski with his concussion issues is  going to be tested with the short stuff  and we will see what he is made of, Saffies play it tougher than most teams and with Nortje going at 156kmh in the IPL its going to be a barrage of bouncers IMO so I hope the umpires are of the neutral variety and not all from Saffie land.
I'll go Aus 2-1 as I expect the players under pressure like Warner and Starc to deliver, should be fun to watch too as the Saffie Crowds are a bit like Collingwood ferals and really give it to our blokes and I expect sandpaper sales to increase for the 1st test..?

I'm not so worried about Carey's first class average. Often they can be lower. There's often reasons for that. They come in young, pitches are made for 4 days instead of 5 etc. I more look at current form. Michael Clarke only had an average of 34 when he played his first Test. We knew he was ready though. I look at current form more than anything.  Starc would have to improve alot. That was a very poor, series losing season for him. Jhye Richardson is the best of the bowlers outside of the one's in the side and he would be my first choice.

I'm a big believer in leadership and often the sides plays in the mould of the captain. Hence no way I go with Paine. Too many 5th days failure when under pressure. Plus he dropped catches and missed stumping, which cost us the series. Batting ok but he's there for his keeping, which has crashed. Happens at 36yo. Unfortunately for his captaincy too, which was something horrible. He's goes to the retirement.

Lyon is just in.  As you said, wouldn't want to struggle the First Test.

[ElwoodBlues1]

I'm not so worried about Carey's first class average. Often they can be lower. There's often reasons for that. They come in young, pitches are made for 4 days instead of 5 etc. I more look at current form. Michael Clarke only had an average of 34 when he played his first Test. We knew he was ready though. I look at current form more than anything.  Starc would have to improve alot. That was a very poor, series losing season for him. Jhye Richardson is the best of the bowlers outside of the one's in the side and he would be my first choice.

I'm a big believer in leadership and often the sides plays in the mould of the captain. Hence no way I go with Paine. Too many 5th days failure when under pressure. Plus he dropped catches and missed stumping, which cost us the series. Batting ok but he's there for his keeping, which has crashed. Happens at 36yo. Unfortunately for his captaincy too, which was something horrible. He's goes to the retirement.

Lyon is just in.  As you said, wouldn't want to struggle the First Test.

I think Paines batting is inflated by not outs and where he bats, he isnt in the same parish as Pant, DeKock, Butler, Bairstow, Watling etc as a batsman and his keeping which was his forte has dropped off.
I dont mind Richardson but I think Abbott or Neser will start ahead of him as long as Langar/Paine are running the team.
With no Paine I reckon we would go with Cummins as captain which isnt ideal IMO, Ian Chappell wants Warner but that wont happen and Smith is the other option but I wouldnt be returning him in SA as Captain at the scene of the crime.
Interesting that Maxwell and Finch have been told by Victorian cricket they are finished at Shield level too so they wont be returning as test players...Finch might have been an outside chance to captain Australia if he had some form.

[crashlander]

Paine could have had a much longer career had it not been for injury: he missed a lot of cricket over the years. The reason he was so highly rated was his keeping first and foremost. His batting was potentially good, good enough to open for Tasmania. but his results with the bat have never equaled his theoretical potential.

Paine has been quite a reasonable captain for us, especially as he took the job on in very difficult circumstances. But at his age, cracks are appearing. He is 36, which does explain how his keeping has dropped off. He is still one of the better keepers, but he is on the decline.
So, do we look to the future?

There are a number of good young keepers going around, a number of which are decent batsmen. Carey appears to be leading the pack, but he has played little first class cricket since entering the Australian white ball squads.
Nor is he alone in this area. Adam Zampa could be considered as a spinning option, but for the fact that he hasn't played any first class cricket of note in over a year.
How are these guys going to impress in the test arena, if they play so little multiple day cricket games?

If Paine is put out to pasture, something that must happen sooner or later, then the captaincy issue will become acute.
(a) Smith has made a good return to test cricket, but I wouldn't give him the captaincy again. He was a great performer, but not a great captain. while he had the job.
(b) Warner has the aggression as a captain that could be useful. However, like Shane Warne in his day, his copy book is blotted. Warne was a fantastic captain, especially in the field. But his behaviour kept him from showing it very often. The same for Warner. And he isn't getting any younger either.
© Cummins appears to have the tactical nous and the ability as a bowler to be a great leader, but one of the secrets of captaincy is the ability to make clutch decisions. A man who has bowled 20+ overs in a day is going to be tired. It is natural. Tired people do not generally make the best decisions. It is the reason so few fast bowlers have been captain in the history of the game.
(d) There have been rumours about that Glenn Maxwell and Aaron Finch, both of whom have excellent captaincy credentials, have been informed that their future at Sheffield Shield level is limited. That definitely stops either of them from parachuting into the Captaincy. Neither is young either. Finch is 34 and is past his peak, even in the white ball game. He has been excellent in recent times, but he cannot survive another form drop like he had a couple of years back.
(e) Marnus Labuschagne might be an answer: his spot in the team looks very solid. However, he hasn't had a lot of captaincy experience to date. I don't know if he has the tactical nous for the job yet.
(f) The selectors gave Head a long go as VC, as he does have some captaincy ability. However, he is no certainty to regain his place and doesn't look like his spot would ever be a given.
(g) Matthew Wade has good captaincy skills, but his place as a batsman is slipping away. He is not young either. Apparently he is colourblind, something I only just discovered. His keeping days are behind him.

At some point, Cricket Australia is going to have a hard choice on at least 2 fronts. Do they bite the bullet now, and allow the newbies to grow into the positions available before the Ashes? or do they wait for performances to drop off further?

To add to that, we also have the question of an aging spin attack. Nathan Lyon, who has been brilliant for us, the best off-spinner ever to play for Australia, is showing signs of 'decay'. He really struggled against India and could barely get a wicket or stop the runs. He is 33 and not getting better (except maybe his batting).
Who are the next spinners we have? Are any of them ready for test cricket? And how do we tell, when we produce pitches than don't wear much?

[Milhanna13]

The fish rots at the head. Paine is a poor, panicky captain and the players played in that ,ould with great intent. What were his plans, field placings terrible, bowling plans, who knows. Worst captain since Yallop. On the other side Rahane drags a side very depleted, that's used 20 players, to a win they should never have had. That played with great want and intent and got rewarded. We essentially played with two bowlers and two batsmen, with a decent effort from Green. 1-0 up in the series, Paine has the best bowling attack in the world, India’s skipper goes home, they play 20 players, a lot of them no-names, Paine wins the toss three out of four, he stuffs up countless DRS reviews, he drops catches, he misses stumpings, he loses his cool with embarrassing sledging and ultimately he is in charge of a team that loses the unlosable series.

Need to go back to Smith for the SA Tour. Our choices are limited there right now so it's Smith. While never classified as a great captain, he was a good captain, had a ruthless edge good plans, bowlers with in partnerships with constant pressure. We could get the job done on the 5th day. This summer, by contrast, outside the constant use of the short ball how many time did we see consecutive ball in the same spot, a stock ball, building pressure with dots building pressure. What was with Sydney with that constant shot pitched bowling on a dead flat block of concrete. Just like the panicky debacle at Headingley, we were in a dominate position in the last 2 Tests for a draw and a loss against a depleted team. Paine can piss off. Because of Paine's leadership we are out of the top 2 on the WTC Table. top 2 play the final at Lord's. we need to beat SA 2-0. Can do it with Smith, no chance with Paine. Good leaders are everything.

First Test in SA...

Khawaja (short term until we find someone longer term)
Warner
Labuschagne
Smith ©
Pucovski
Green
Carey
Cummins
Richardson
Lyon (just holds his spot)
Hazelwood

Amen - love this post. Agree with all of it.  And agree 100% with that team (with a fit jimmy patto as next choice quick)

[Professer E]

My problems with this team mainly revolve around the openers..... Cameos Khawaja,  who has played one decent innings versus off spin in a totally unfulfilled career, and a fading Warner,  with his completly on/off form over the past two years,  plus he'll be crucified by the SA crowds etc.  CA are as weak as piss, stood by and did F all while the whole SA set up used gutter tactics to extreme levels. At the very least deKock should have been censured for his behaviour.  Fancy letting officials walk around with Sonny BW masks.  And we're the bad guys?

Longer term I still reckon Renshaw has what it takes to open,  just can't find the key to unlock whatever it is that's missing.

And that side is old,  too old. 

Left field,  but I'd pick Maxwell at six to offer a counter punching option and some spin,  plus at least he can field unlike other contenders.  Captained Victoria well at times too.  Why Neser also can't get a game staggers me,  oh wait,  he doesn't live in Bankstown or Manly.  No more NSW entitlement.  Too many inflated heads.