SSM Plebiscite

[Baggers]

Yep, Beetroot Head has got himself into a bit of a pickle so to speak :

) ) )... and the Fluffy One has the line of the pre season so far. Classic... ;D

[LP]

Sorry, but I have to call bullshit on aspects of this article by former Carlton Director Kate Jenkins.

https://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/life...50kqh.html

I'm not questioning the events, I'm sure the happen regularly, what I'm questioning is that this idea of propositioning an LGBTIA person to attempt a conversion is a "male" thing. The feminist manifesto this takes on in the way the article is directed is offensive.

I've a couple of business / social associates who are gay males. Somewhat stereotypical as it is, they are fastidious and fanatical at looking after themselves and presenting themselves in public. The two blokes turn up to grand final barbecues like it's a Myer fashion shoot, and for their age they look like hybrids of Robert Redford and Harrison Ford. Good luck to them, that is is great and sets a fine standard for everybody else, not that you can keep up with the DINKs and still pay for your child's private schooling.

But make no mistake, they go to a function like a wedding, a public event at a bar or restaurant, a concert or festival, and they are continually propositioned by females, who are often but not always drunk females, wanting to attempt a "conversion."

So I find Kate Jenkins article above completely offensive, because it fundamentally flawed, this isn't a male problem it's a societal problem! And to write that article as some sort of feminist manifesto is hypocritical as a bare minimum, if you want to talk the talk then walk the walk!

[PaulP]

Jenkins is not suggesting such behaviour is solely the preserve of males. But it is mostly males who engage in "conversion" attempts. And I'm sure if I bothered to check, statistics would back me up.

Your experiences are simply that, myopic and singular. In terms of a broad overview of the problem, I'm betting Jenkins is in a better and more knowledgeable position than most.

[Thryleon]

Jenkins is not suggesting such behaviour is solely the preserve of males. But it is mostly males who engage in "conversion" attempts. And I'm sure if I bothered to check, statistics would back me up.

Your experiences are simply that, myopic and singular. In terms of a broad overview of the problem, I'm betting Jenkins is in a better and more knowledgeable position than most.

All this does is perpetuate faulty statistics and myths.

First, Id be gobsmacked if there was such a thing as a real statistic on this particular point of interest.

Second, I imagine that the incidence of males trying to pickup females is much greater than vice versa, and that there is no real way to fact check this using any informative data as it probably has never been captured.

Finally, men and women are free to attempt courtship with anyone they choose, provided they don't cross the line into harrasment, and as far as I have experienced, the same actions, attention or whatever you wish, only constitutes harrasment when its unwanted and you cannot find out its unwanted until you declare it.

Even asking about "conversion" shouldnt be off limits to being propositioned, provided its not forceful, and any denials are respected.



AS far as I am aware, no one is more or less knowledgable on subjects such as these, as they frankly live in the world of ridiculous that seems to have invaded our society.  Ill defer to the recent criticism of the song "Baby, its cold outside" as the source of where my frustration comes from on these topics.  A complete misandrist view on how things actually operate/d.

[PaulP]

People like Kate Jenkins are absolutely in a position to have more knowledge on these things than the average Joe.

You can take virtually any crime, be it white collar, blue collar, virtually any type of negative, anti social behaviour, and men will outnumber women as perpetrators, most of the time by significant margins. The article below is simply the tip of the information iceberg.

My personal view is that the big problem is that current model(s) of masculinity are extremely toxic and serve both men and women very poorly. But that's another topic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime

[LP]

Finally, men and women are free to attempt courtship with anyone they choose, provided they don't cross the line into harrasment, and as far as I have experienced, the same actions, attention or whatever you wish, only constitutes harrasment when its unwanted and you cannot find out its unwanted until you declare it.

This seems to have many parallels, not just in sexism but in racism and other discriminations.

Another good example was discussed in the media recently, in some limited circles(not surprisingly higher education facilities) males are being label sexist for opening the door for a female.

It's just untenable to have a situation where guilt relating to a behavior rests in the domain of the beholder because it cannot be measured, but that seems to be were it is all heading.

Should a female be free to scream at me "Don't open that door!", and if she did is my offense justified retrospectively?

A modern perspective is no longer "we" but "me", so I gather "#metoo" is no accident, maybe #wetoo" would have been a better choice and may have actually changed attitudes!

It all feels like a no win situation, combative not constructive!

[PaulP]

.............

Another good example was discussed in the media recently, in some limited circles(not surprisingly higher education facilities) males are being label sexist for opening the door for a female.

............

Seems like much ado about nothing. It's similar to young school kids giving up their bus seat to the elderly or pregnant women. Some oldies like it, and some take it as an affront to their physical capacity to stand.

[LP]

Seems like much ado about nothing. It's similar to young school kids giving up their bus seat to the elderly or pregnant women. Some oldies like it, and some take it as an affront to their physical capacity to stand.

Yes, but the problem would come about if some school kid got suspended or keelhauled through social media for acting that way! That's a real world difference built on a personal opinion!

That recent discussion in the media about opening doors came about because a complaint was lodged and a staff member received a official warning for repeatedly opening a door! Apparently having the door opened by a male staff made a female staff member fell uncomfortable!

Not so long ago, well within our lifetime, not opening the door was a social disgrace!

[PaulP]

Yes, but the problem would come about if some school kid got suspended or keelhauled through social media for acting that way! That's a real world difference built on a personal opinion!

That recent discussion in the media about opening doors came about because a complaint was lodged and a staff member received a official warning for repeatedly opening a door! Apparently having the door opened by a male staff made a female staff member fell uncomfortable!

Not so long ago, well within our lifetime, not opening the door was a social disgrace!

Social mores, customs and norms will change from time to time and can't stay the same forever. There will invariably be teething issues when this happens.

I don't believe even for a second that any school kid would be in trouble for offering to give up their seat.

[LP]

I don't believe even for a second that any school kid would be in trouble for offering to give up their seat.

Then is it a relevant example you have offered?

People do get in trouble for opening a door, and heterosexual women do harass gay males, just as heterosexual males harass lesbians, they are real world events!

I don't know the answer here Paul, but I do know it's not in that article, and it makes me personally question the worth of Kate Jenkins in the role! It feels to me like a lead-in to positive discrimination, and I never see a forced solution as a viable solution at all!