I was going to make this a new thread but since we’ve re-visited the Captain situation I’ll whack it here….
Before I start, I want to emphasise that these are just personal observations and feel free to offer any alternative opinions or information. What I’m looking at is the coach/ captain connection over the last 20 years and considering whether it might have been a significant factor in our stop /start endeavours.
We’ve discussed the last 20 years in some depth over the years. We’ve all had different opinions on what has kept us at a level that has never really risen above average. One of the things that may not have been looked at closely is the Coach - Captain interaction.
One of the features of our most successful years was that they always seemed to occur with strong figures in the role of Captain (Nicholls, Jesaulenko, Fitzpatrick, Kernahan). I’d argue that in the last twenty years we haven’t had that ‘strong’ leader. Kouta, Judd and now Cripps are exceptional players. They have tended to lead by example, but they haven’t necessarily demonstrated the leadership qualities we have seen from Captains of other sides or eras. Added to that there have been question marks over some of the relationships with the coach (Kouta/ Pagan being the prime example.)
So taking a quick look at the Coach- Captain combinations…
2002 Wayne Brittain- Brett Ratten
After making the finals in 2001, a horror run of injuries saw Carlton collect their first ever wooden spoon. Ratten only played twelve games for the year. Only 2 of those were wins. The players and Brittain seemed to be a very close knit group. The players were given a lot of opportunity to participate in the direction under the Parkin/ Brittain regime. Did that also come with a high degree of respect or did the players regard Brittain as a mini-Parko? What was to come next was probably a bit of a shock because the new coach had different ideas about coach player interaction.
2003 Denis Pagan- Brett Ratten/ Andrew Mckay
Ratten only played 7 games under Pagan before injury ended his career in round 10. There were a few issues surrounding the announcement of his retirement that gave the feeling it was a bit of a rush, but Ratts was clearly done. Vice Captain McKay took over but retired at the end of the year. How much of their bond with Brittain carried over into that first season under Pagan is an unknown, but Pagan’s desire to retire off a few of their team-mates may have been a factor in their relationship. In any case it wasn’t a long one. The next Coach-Captain relationship was (from all evidence) anything but a happy one.
2004-2006 Denis Pagan- Anthony Koutoufides
Someone mentioned PassIt2Carrots in another thread. A prolific poster in his time, Carrots’ first thread was titled something along the lines of “Kouta hates Pagan”. A rocky old relationship. When your Captain and other members of the leadership group have secret meetings on a boat with the club powerbrokers to lobby for the coach’s demise…. you’re pretty well ‘rooted’ (coach and club).
2007-Denis Pagan- Lance Whitnall
Whitnall was part of the “boat trip”. His view of Pagan and his methods were probably pretty aligned with Koutas'
2007- Brett Ratten- Lance Whitnall
Whitnall only played 3 games under Ratten.
2008-2012 Brett Ratten- Chris Judd
Judd was appointed Captain almost before he stepped off the plane from WA. What did he think of Ratten in the initial stages? His previous coach at West Coast was amongst the very best around. Did he see Ratten as someone with ‘training wheels’ at the time? Whatever, it seemed to work OK and saw our most successful period of the ‘dark ages’
2013-2015 Mick Malthouse- Marc Murphy.
In comes Malthouse-out goes captain Judd. What was the conversation between the two at the time? We can only guess if it was a mutual agreement, or not. Judd spoke very highly of Malthouse after Malthouse’s departure from Carlton describing him as a ‘wonderful coach’.
It’s hard to get a handle on the Murphy- Malthouse relationship. It’s a fact that Murphy publicly backed and supported Mick right until the end. Malthouse suggested that in fact players like Murphy and Gibbs weren’t fans of the Blue’s board and their plans to rebuild. Whether Mick was using these players as ‘press-ganged allies’ in his battle with the board can only be guessed at.
It’s hard to know how Murphy really felt privately. When asked to describe his realtionhip with Mick his response was just “OK” ….he added “that’s been and gone now. I’ve come out the other side and I’ve really improved as a person, as a leader, I’ve learnt a lot about myself, about my team, about the footy club,”
2015 John Barker- Marc Murphy
Such a limited time there is probably not much to say. Not really a factor given the caretaker role.
2016-2018 Brendon Bolton- Marc Murphy
The relationship seemed to start OK.
Bolton came with a brief to rebuild the side. Players like Murphy were probably given different roles. Younger players were given more opportunity at roles he would previously have filled.
So did Murphy’s opinion change over the ensuing years?
His comments on the change between Bolton and Teague during that caretaker period seem to suggest they may have. It give the impression that the players found the Bolton plan a bit complicated…
2019 Brendon Bolton- Sam Docherty/Patrick Cripps
On Bolton’s demise…
Patrick Cripps
Sam Docherty (who missed significant playing time under Bolton but did spend a lot of time in a semi-coaching position alongside Bolton)
2019 -David Teague and Sam Docherty/ Patrick Cripps
So in the caretaker period Cripps stated he was firmly on the Teague train….
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/234645...ous-teague
Now all those comments have to be treated with the cautionary note that there would be some club expectations on what the players say.
One more thing that needs to be considered is the dual captaincy.
I personally think it’s a shocker.
It has the potential to factionalise and present mixed messages.
So how important is that Coach- Captain bond?
Can we see that importance in other clubs.
Can we learn from them in our choices?
Do we see a trend in performance when there is either a disconnect or total lack of connection between Coach and Captain?
Should we do away with the dual Captaincy? (I vote ...yes!)
Before I start, I want to emphasise that these are just personal observations and feel free to offer any alternative opinions or information. What I’m looking at is the coach/ captain connection over the last 20 years and considering whether it might have been a significant factor in our stop /start endeavours.
We’ve discussed the last 20 years in some depth over the years. We’ve all had different opinions on what has kept us at a level that has never really risen above average. One of the things that may not have been looked at closely is the Coach - Captain interaction.
One of the features of our most successful years was that they always seemed to occur with strong figures in the role of Captain (Nicholls, Jesaulenko, Fitzpatrick, Kernahan). I’d argue that in the last twenty years we haven’t had that ‘strong’ leader. Kouta, Judd and now Cripps are exceptional players. They have tended to lead by example, but they haven’t necessarily demonstrated the leadership qualities we have seen from Captains of other sides or eras. Added to that there have been question marks over some of the relationships with the coach (Kouta/ Pagan being the prime example.)
So taking a quick look at the Coach- Captain combinations…
2002 Wayne Brittain- Brett Ratten
After making the finals in 2001, a horror run of injuries saw Carlton collect their first ever wooden spoon. Ratten only played twelve games for the year. Only 2 of those were wins. The players and Brittain seemed to be a very close knit group. The players were given a lot of opportunity to participate in the direction under the Parkin/ Brittain regime. Did that also come with a high degree of respect or did the players regard Brittain as a mini-Parko? What was to come next was probably a bit of a shock because the new coach had different ideas about coach player interaction.
2003 Denis Pagan- Brett Ratten/ Andrew Mckay
Ratten only played 7 games under Pagan before injury ended his career in round 10. There were a few issues surrounding the announcement of his retirement that gave the feeling it was a bit of a rush, but Ratts was clearly done. Vice Captain McKay took over but retired at the end of the year. How much of their bond with Brittain carried over into that first season under Pagan is an unknown, but Pagan’s desire to retire off a few of their team-mates may have been a factor in their relationship. In any case it wasn’t a long one. The next Coach-Captain relationship was (from all evidence) anything but a happy one.
2004-2006 Denis Pagan- Anthony Koutoufides
Someone mentioned PassIt2Carrots in another thread. A prolific poster in his time, Carrots’ first thread was titled something along the lines of “Kouta hates Pagan”. A rocky old relationship. When your Captain and other members of the leadership group have secret meetings on a boat with the club powerbrokers to lobby for the coach’s demise…. you’re pretty well ‘rooted’ (coach and club).
2007-Denis Pagan- Lance Whitnall
Whitnall was part of the “boat trip”. His view of Pagan and his methods were probably pretty aligned with Koutas'
2007- Brett Ratten- Lance Whitnall
Whitnall only played 3 games under Ratten.
2008-2012 Brett Ratten- Chris Judd
Judd was appointed Captain almost before he stepped off the plane from WA. What did he think of Ratten in the initial stages? His previous coach at West Coast was amongst the very best around. Did he see Ratten as someone with ‘training wheels’ at the time? Whatever, it seemed to work OK and saw our most successful period of the ‘dark ages’
2013-2015 Mick Malthouse- Marc Murphy.
In comes Malthouse-out goes captain Judd. What was the conversation between the two at the time? We can only guess if it was a mutual agreement, or not. Judd spoke very highly of Malthouse after Malthouse’s departure from Carlton describing him as a ‘wonderful coach’.
It’s hard to get a handle on the Murphy- Malthouse relationship. It’s a fact that Murphy publicly backed and supported Mick right until the end. Malthouse suggested that in fact players like Murphy and Gibbs weren’t fans of the Blue’s board and their plans to rebuild. Whether Mick was using these players as ‘press-ganged allies’ in his battle with the board can only be guessed at.
It’s hard to know how Murphy really felt privately. When asked to describe his realtionhip with Mick his response was just “OK” ….he added “that’s been and gone now. I’ve come out the other side and I’ve really improved as a person, as a leader, I’ve learnt a lot about myself, about my team, about the footy club,”
2015 John Barker- Marc Murphy
Such a limited time there is probably not much to say. Not really a factor given the caretaker role.
2016-2018 Brendon Bolton- Marc Murphy
The relationship seemed to start OK.
Quote:“Murphy said Bolton’s arrival and emphasis on treating players as people, not just as footballers, was the perfect attitude for the Blues’ playing group.(perhaps a shot at Malthouse)
“When you analyse yourself as just a footballer, when football isn’t going so well everything seems to get on top of you. I think blokes have probably been overwhelmed over the past couple of years by looking at their football too much and overwhelmed by it,”
Bolton came with a brief to rebuild the side. Players like Murphy were probably given different roles. Younger players were given more opportunity at roles he would previously have filled.
So did Murphy’s opinion change over the ensuing years?
His comments on the change between Bolton and Teague during that caretaker period seem to suggest they may have. It give the impression that the players found the Bolton plan a bit complicated…
Quote:He's (Teague) great at building relationships. I think he's been enormous in that area since he came to the club.but you just don’t know how much of these comments were just company line PR.
"And he just keeps things really simple. He's big on guys playing their role and understanding what that requires, and guys are really buying into that at the moment."
2019 Brendon Bolton- Sam Docherty/Patrick Cripps
On Bolton’s demise…
Patrick Cripps
Quote:"It didn't work out the way he would have liked, but I can't question the amount of work he did for us as a group. A lot of respect for him."
Sam Docherty (who missed significant playing time under Bolton but did spend a lot of time in a semi-coaching position alongside Bolton)
Quote:A month after the Blues changed their AFL senior coach, co-captain Sam Docherty said he had rung Bolton to pass on his thanks and see how he is going.Obviously a deep respect for Bolton from both his Co-Captains but they moved on fairly quickly….
“He’s not in the best place, which you can understand when you’ve lost your job,” Docherty told RSN on Thursday morning.
“I think he wants the club to do really well and obviously he’s wishing us all the best.
“But everyone would be naive to think he’s going rosy, he’s left footy and he’s going unbelievably well.
“I don’t want to divulge too much about how he’s going … but I called him to thank him for everything he’s done for the footy club.”
2019 -David Teague and Sam Docherty/ Patrick Cripps
So in the caretaker period Cripps stated he was firmly on the Teague train….
Quote:If the decision was up to Cripps, the club's brightest star, Teague would be given a contract tomorrow.Docherty also backed Teague
"The way the boys have been playing the last few weeks, the growth is definitely building," he said.
"Teaguey has brought the best out of certain players in different roles. The boys are buying into those roles…………
"I've really loved having him as a senior coach ... he's been awesome."
https://www.carltonfc.com.au/news/234645...ous-teague
Now all those comments have to be treated with the cautionary note that there would be some club expectations on what the players say.
One more thing that needs to be considered is the dual captaincy.
I personally think it’s a shocker.
It has the potential to factionalise and present mixed messages.
So how important is that Coach- Captain bond?
Can we see that importance in other clubs.
Can we learn from them in our choices?
Do we see a trend in performance when there is either a disconnect or total lack of connection between Coach and Captain?
Should we do away with the dual Captaincy? (I vote ...yes!)