Carlton pasted by Pies (Post Game)

[PassIt2Carrots]

Well what happened to Mick's 'common goal' crap he was talking about when he arrived at the club. Another epic fail.

[crashlander]

Well what happened to Mick's 'common goal' crap he was talking about when he arrived at the club. Another epic fail.

TBH, I am not sure our players know what our goals are. That is a problem with the coach, but the players are not innocent either.

[Baggers]

They did, the selection needed the blessing of those higher up though.

...and let's face it, if the coaches have signalled a preference for Murph the players would just fall into line. Plus I bet there was some politics involved.... you know, afraid of losing Murph as the contract talks are near so dangle the Skipperdom as a carrot  :

Just listened to Rowey talk and he handled himself well, as does Hendo... but Murph seldom comes across well in the media when he opens his cakehole, not a blight on him as a player but doesn't help in the leadership stakes.

[IvanAwfulbigone]

When a team gets a run on, the players start playing for themselves.
I remember watching Ed Curnow Blanket a man next to a Player with a free kick, while two Collingwood players ran forward of the ball unopposed. It was like... "I am on this guy".

There must be or has been someone or something at the club during the tenure of these guys that has caused them to be like this? It would be highly unlikely for ALL or even many of them to have this trait built in surely? In other words, it's more likely to be something they've learned at the club over years. What could be the common denominators?
Culture (onfield/off field)  inherited by the group from a previous time?
Coaching - been a problem, by degree, under multiple coaches?
Prolonged lack of effective leadership (lack of) - like growing up without a father can be detrimental?
Recruitment selection - bad psych profiling?
All of the above?
I give up, but maybe someone closer to the club could answer?

I have no idea either but I suspect it's 'All of the above'. shadesy has articulated something that drives me mad. You'd think these habits/attitudes would be easy to fix but ... no.

Another thing I've noticed is the way we corral an opposition player in a one on one situation so that he's completely hemmed in, only to have another Blues player leave his man and try and help out. For the love of God, WHY?!?  Opposition player then has an easy handball or chip over the top to the (now) loose man and they're away.  Happens time, after time, after time, ...

[Lods]

There must be or has been someone or something at the club during the tenure of these guys that has caused them to be like this? It would be highly unlikely for ALL or even many of them to have this trait built in surely? In other words, it's more likely to be something they've learned at the club over years. What could be the common denominators?
Culture (onfield/off field)  inherited by the group from a previous time?
Coaching - been a problem, by degree, under multiple coaches?
Prolonged lack of effective leadership (lack of) - like growing up without a father can be detrimental?
Recruitment selection - bad psych profiling?
All of the above?
I give up, but maybe someone closer to the club could answer?

I don't think the club have the answers.
They haven't fixed it.
I put this up before but removed it because it was bit long winded (and a bit self indulgent ).
I'll stick it up again.
I want to make the point that many of us argued these traits over the last ten years, not just me....
but these are just a selection of my posts.
It doesn't identify a cause but it does show it's not a recent phenomenon and something quite a few of us have been banging on about for over 10 years

8/6/ 2013

We're still a team of individuals.

Some are brilliant individuals.....but there seems to be an unwillingness at times to work 'for' or 'with' others.

We often get the individual super performance, like Waite last night, but when that happens others, for whatever reason, go missing.

Until we get that individualism out of the system and start working as a unit we won't improve.

I'm watching the Swans in action at the moment. They work 'for' and 'with' each other.....there is a brilliant "Team".

3/7/2009

The most important thing we need to do is to move away from the period of the 'individual' that has plagued us for many seasons.
During the dark days.....and it probably began pre Pagan, the Carlton side changed from the consumate 'team' mentality of the 1990's to a team of individuals.
In some cases it was forced by the necessity of survival.
Players played to ensure that their place was secure without too much emphasis on the team side of things.
We retain on our list a number of players who went through the worst of this period and there are arguments that some of that 'selfishness' has been retained in the make-up of some of these players.
The task is to slowly turn this list over so that we have a team of players that are committed and prepared to sacrifice aspects of their game for the greater good of the team.
We do have some examples of these 'selfless' players on our list but unfortunately their ability has not always matched their determination and application.They have however been given a fair bit of game, sometimes much to the 'disappointment' of fans who have been derisive in their comments and continually surprised how such 'duds' could get a game. Their time is probably drawing to a close and they will soon be replaced, hopefully by youngsters with a similar attitude but with greater skills.

30/6/2008

Too often over the last 5-6 years we have had a team of individuals playing for their own futures and afraid to make mistakes.Some of them have looked after themselves at the expense of doing the team thing. I understand that because that was the culture...every man for themselves.
I think it was largely subconscious but......
When you're going that bad as a team it was probably understandable to be subconsciously a bit selfish.
There were, over this period though, a couple of players that bucked that trend and tended to do the team things at the expense of their own game.

29/3/2008

I think the basic problem we face is the same problem we've faced in recent years.........
We look and play like a group of individuals, not as a 'team'. There are some very talented individuals out there, some also play with a bit of passion and display enthusiasm when goals are kicked etc..... but they still play with little system and understanding.

The only solution for that is time..... but in the last five years we've turned over players at such a rate that in respect of 'team' development we're back to scratch. Hopefully players like Judd and Hadley who have been parts of successful teams can short circuit this process.
Here's a problem I always have with the 'list is no good' argument.
(and let's take Denis out of the equation or we all know where this will end up  ..... but draw your own conclusions  )

2/3/2007

Australian Football is not a game of individuals.
It's a team game.
Names on a team sheet can look mighty impressive but it's how they combine and complement one another that is important.

You can have a team of very good players but if their main concern is individual performance and not working hard for one another they will still as a group produce an ordinary performance.

The Carlton teams I remember as successful have always had very good players but it was the understanding and confidence in one another they
possessed that made them special.

I think the thing that has frustrated me most in the last few years has been the inability to perform as a team rather than a lack of individual brilliance.

4/12/2005

The TEAM element is an important aspect.

You can have a list of very talented individuals but unless they combine as a group Premierships are a long way off. That was the main difference between our Wizard Cup performances and a couple of games towards the end of the season and the season as a whole.
On most occasions during the year players seemed to be too concerned about their own individual performances rather than supporting one another and playing a Team game.

Now the combination we're talking about takes a time to develop. A perfect example of a TEAM performance was our 1995 group. They had an understanding, particularly in defence, and a commitment to one another that had developed over many games of playing together.

We've just gone through a radical reconstruction of our playing list that is still continuing. Until this process settles down and we get a stable list of players with a number of years of playing together we are unlikely to have the TEAM understanding required to win Premierships.

Great players don't win Flags, Great teams do. That’s what I'm looking for in terms of development over the next couple of seasons.

25/5/2005

At the moment our side are playing as individuals. It's a common theme in a number of threads as Nicole points out. You can understand 'why'. Because the vast majority are fighting for their footballing survival and the constant changes to personnel mean the side is never allowed to settle.

Let's start tanking games some say. Or as it's more properly put "maximise our draft selections."

But you see, what will happen is that a couple of the most talented youngsters in the land will be brought into a group lacking in confidence, fighting for their own individual places and looking over their shoulders at the 'new' threats to those places....because they don't work as a team here.

Let's have another cleanout at the end of the year some say. Were not going to get much at the trade table for any of them. They're a group of "rejects" (some twice over) from a struggling club. We'll just have to delist them. So if we haven't got anything to trade we're not going to get those low draft picks to supplement the ones we've already "earned." 

But at least we'll have some new blood.

But, But, But.....How long will it take this new blood to settle in?
How long will it take them to bond together?
How long before they undertand the strengths and weaknesses of their team-"mates"
How long before they can support them?
How long before they'll be prepared to take a hit for them.
Before they'll put their body on the line for them.
Before they'll run and jump and bump until their bodies are totally spent because they don't want to let the TEAM down.

...and they're just my posts...the scary thing is you could take any one of them and drop them (names aside) into last week’s post match (this) thread.

[kruddler]

It doesn't identify a cause but it does show it's not a recent phenomenon and something quite a few of us have been banging on about for over 10 years

...and thats why we need to change the culture of the place. Everyone is too focused on themselves and not enough on the team.

Juddy said, and i agree, that we signs of that towards the end of last year. So much so that it played a part in him agreeing to play on.

What has changed?
Why did it change?
When can we get it back...and improve it further?
How do you get it back and improve it?

[Thryleon]

...and thats why we need to change the culture of the place. Everyone is too focused on themselves and not enough on the team.

Juddy said, and i agree, that we signs of that towards the end of last year. So much so that it played a part in him agreeing to play on.

What has changed?
Why did it change?
When can we get it back...and improve it further?
How do you get it back and improve it?

I know the answer and it won't be popular.

The players will only disintigrate further whilst the future is uncertain. 

You would have to speak candidly one on one with the playing group, and find out where they are at in regards to the coach, their future and their teamates.

You will never get 44 blokes to all get along, but they need to start acting like they are a family. 

That means setting the head of the household right.  If the majority are behind Malthouse then you would have to make a statement and sign him up immediately sending the message you are either with him or you are out.

Vice versa,  if the majority are against him you can placate them all again one on one and simply state that they will need to put their best foot forward to impress the next bloke coming in, or even to ensure their future at Carlton. 

You can't really put them on notice they will simply play for themselves and the environment seems miserable enough already.

As a side plot I think we need to encourage the guys to do some team building with the fans.  If we can't perform on the pitch mamaybe they can kick some goals off it, by working with some under privileged parts of our society.  They might appreciate what they have that little bit more for it.

Sad it's come to this really.

[Lods]

While I don't completely disagree

What happens if we ask the question and get an almost 50/50 split Thry

[Baggers]

Little observation:

During the Rottingwood game last Friday night, leadership blokes Rowe, Hendo and Murph were busting a gut. Now before I am howled down re Hendo, it is my hunch that the bloke came into the game under an injury cloud and twanged the hammy early on hence being useless - that he played told me he desperately wanted to help out in MMs milestone game, but it turned out disastrous for him. MM impresses upon us that we do not take very suspect blokes into games (though most blokes take niggles into games)... Hendo was very suspect, you only need to look at how he pulled up the week prior and grabbed at his hammy and calf the week prior.

180 degrees from these blokes (including Armfield and the kids), attitude wise, was the lame effort from Gibbs. Folks, I saw it first hand here in NZ the week prior, the Gibbs disinterest. And as I mentioned in a previous post, folks next to me at the game, knowing little about the game and obviously invited along as a part of the occasion (ANZAC day), unsolicited, mentioned loudly to each other how 'weak' no. 4 was. His apathy stood out that much. It was embarrassing to watch his lack of effort. He only contributed more after EVERYONE ELSE HAD LIFTED... easy stuff.

Why has this bloke become a liability on match day? Why is he a shadow of last year? Why does he just not give a toss at present? As a member/shareholder of the club we have a right to have this situation addressed and explained, honestly. At present the Gibbs presence on the field is 'anti leadership', especially by example.

Gibbs should not be playing this week based on form and ATTITUDE. This is a test for MM who has claimed that out of form blokes do not get a gig.

My bigger problem with the Gibbs lack of effort and attitude is the influence and effect this has on the rest of the team. This issue demands explanation and action. Blokes with this kind of attitude and form, getting a gig, only sends one message to the young blokes - reputation gets you games at the CFC, not bona fide form, attitude and contribution.

[cimm1979]

Little observation:

During the Rottingwood game last Friday night, leadership blokes Rowe, Hendo and Murph were busting a gut. Now before I am howled down re Hendo, it is my hunch that the bloke came into the game under an injury cloud and twanged the hammy early on hence being useless - that he played told me he desperately wanted to help out in MMs milestone game, but it turned out disastrous for him. MM impresses upon us that we do not take very suspect blokes into games (though most blokes take niggles into games)... Hendo was very suspect, you only need to look at how he pulled up the week prior and grabbed at his hammy and calf the week prior.

180 degrees from these blokes (including Armfield and the kids), attitude wise, was the lame effort from Gibbs. Folks, I saw it first hand here in NZ the week prior, the Gibbs disinterest. And as I mentioned in a previous post, folks next to me at the game, knowing little about the game and obviously invited along as a part of the occasion (ANZAC day), unsolicited, mentioned loudly to each other how 'weak' no. 4 was. His apathy stood out that much. It was embarrassing to watch his lack of effort. He only contributed more after EVERYONE ELSE HAD LIFTED... easy stuff.

Why has this bloke become a liability on match day? Why is he a shadow of last year? Why does he just not give a toss at present? As a member/shareholder of the club we have a right to have this situation addressed and explained, honestly. At present the Gibbs presence on the field is 'anti leadership', especially by example.

Gibbs should not be playing this week based on form and ATTITUDE. This is a test for MM who has claimed that out of form blokes do not get a gig.

My bigger problem with the Gibbs lack of effort and attitude is the influence and effect this has on the rest of the team. This issue demands explanation and action. Blokes with this kind of attitude and form, getting a gig, only sends one message to the young blokes - reputation gets you games at the CFC, not bona fide form, attitude and contribution.

If you saw it, then you'd have to assume the rest see it as well as the coaching staff.

If he doesn't get dropped, what does that tell you?