AFL Rd 13 2024 Pre Game Prognostications Carlton vs Essendon

[WASurfer]

If Langford is fit, can they play Wright, Langford, Cox and Jones as forwards? Seems pretty top heavy and would possibly leave us one short as far as tall defenders go? Jones has been in reasonable form this year and Cox bobbed up with 3 goals last week. If one of Kemp or McGovern goes to Stringer then there's an argument for maybe Marchbank or Young to come in....despite neither of them doing much in the VFL?

I think Stringer would be too hard a match up in the air for someone like Saad, Cowan or Newman?

[pinot]

Taking a runner away from rotation is bad news imo. We have more legs to hurt the oppo on the rebound as the game goes on. Don't think we will lose if we play two rucks all it does it takes runners away in rotation and score from turnover will fall down and need to depend on score from stoppages

[Lods]

That's the thing though isn't it.
If we're talking about it (2 rucks v 1 ruck) it's pretty certain the coaches are talking about it.
Voss gets asked about the situation pretty regularly
They'd be making considered judgements on a weekly  basis armed with a lot more information than we have.
The fact that we sometimes go with one and other times two is a decision they have to live with if the result doesn't always work in our favour.
It's probably a fair observation that if both are fit and firing we tend to use them both...but that may change as the season progresses.

[LP]

Taking a runner away from rotation is bad news imo. We have more legs to hurt the oppo on the rebound as the game goes on. Don't think we will lose if we play two rucks all it does it takes runners away in rotation and score from turnover will fall down and need to depend on score from stoppages

Having Pitto and TDK in is not as big a negative as it seems, because TDK is far more aerobic, agile and athletic than most other rucks. You might lose a little bit relative to another genuine Mid, but nowhere near as much as if we ran two Pitto types, and not that much compared to some typical utility.

Also, if our two are in form like they have been, it can force opposition to run two rucks and almost none of our opponents have a ruck option as mobile as TDK.

I read somewhere one of our coaches described just how much real bench time gets lost, the way it's distributed across the team means it may only be seconds each per quarter. Also, because the rest periods are not all equal, it may mean that someone like Weiters, Harry, Charlie or McGovern each get a few more seconds on the ground and Mids are not affected at all. The issue is not cut and dry.

Fans or broadcasters will sometimes highlight moments when a Cripps type gets stuck on the bench, and that can be related to more than team tactics or the pattern of play. The same applies to every other player including the rucks, it's not always the case a long rest is deliberately planned.

An opposition player, I can't recall who but I think it was from the Filth(Maybe Elliott), complained he spent more time sprinting on and off then he got as rest time, and the more rotations he had the more exhausting it was! His assertion was that bench time has become more tactical than rest related.

[kruddler]

Having Pitto and TDK in is not as big a negative as it seems, because TDK is far more aerobic, agile and athletic than most other rucks. You might lose a little bit relative to another genuine Mid, but nowhere near as much as if we ran two Pitto types, and not that much compared to some typical utility.

Just because you say it, and repeat it, doesn't make it true.

Have a look at the last game Pitto played where TDK spent most of his time forward.
Look at what he offered the side. He made Fantasia look like a superstar by comparison.
TDK vs Fantasia
Disposals - 6 vs 8
Scoring - 0.0 vs 0.1
Goal Assists - 0 vs 1
Score involvements - 2 vs 3
I50's - 1 vs 1
Marks - 1 vs 2
Tackles - 0 vs 3
Meters gained - 76 vs 203
Fantasy points - 18 vs 40
Pressure Acts - 8 vs 13
Hitouts - 3 vs 0
Hitouts to Adv - 0 vs 0

....and this is compariing against basically our worst player in Fantasia. Should i do a comparison against another mid??

TDK forward is not sustainable

TDK plays best as #1 ruck.
Yes, he has played some good games (this year) as backup ruck, but they are the exception, not the rule.

[RiverRat]

Your solo ruckman goes down in the first 15 mins and you're in trouble! One of your twin towers is displaced and Cripps and Kennedy are left to pick up the ruck scraps. It's a calculated risk!!

I think that this situation is one that MUST be guarded against - especially in an elimination, preliminary or grand final.  Therefore, it seems crazy to not formulate (and perfect) ongoing plan/s to play two ruckmen - except when injury intervenes or the opposition represents no serious competitive threat in that area.

Given Pitto's comparative lack of positional options, the logical route would seem to have him take the bulk of the ruckwork early in the game with the option of replacing him with the substitute later in the game or when the need arises. 

To maximise TDK's potential impact when Pitto is rucking, we need to experiment with other ways to utilise TDK, e.g. as a tall defender (even Casboult developed into a better than average defender at one stage) or perhaps as a 'Richo-style' wingman.

[LP]

....and this is compariing against basically our worst player in Fantasia. Should i do a comparison against another mid??

We aren't stupid [member=20]kruddler[/member], we can see you've cherry-picked the Sydney game data which was TDK's worst by 300% minimum and Fantasia's 2nd best for the season, it was also the worst result for a bunch of our other players this season.

When you lower yourself to these tactics to try and make a point you diminish your argument rather than assist it.

[LP]

To maximise TDK's potential impact when Pitto is rucking, we need to experiment with other ways to utilise TDK, e.g. as a tall defender (even Casboult developed into a better than average defender at one stage) or perhaps as a 'Richo-style' wingman.

If TDK develops his marking in the same way Casboult then it's an option, but at the moment TDK's hands are hit and miss.

Even so, I'm not sure putting anyone in the way of Weitering or McGovern makes sense.

Pitto's great strength is his defensive positioning, it assists our D50 by forcing the opposition into certain zones, and he is more reliable when parked under the footy than TDK.

TDK needs to develop systems of separation with the KPFs that will divide opposition KPDs, but that also depends on the players kicking into D50 and that is another area we need to improve.

[pertz]

I feel like this ruck debate has hijacked this thread. Can we create a separate thread for those that want to keep it going, I'm over it.

[Lods]

I feel like this ruck debate has hijacked this thread. Can we create a separate thread for those that want to keep it going, I'm over it.

It's a fair point...
The 2 ruck v 1 ruck pervades a lot of threads.
I'm sure we have a relevant thread for that discussion somewhere.
If not we probably should create one.

It does have relevance to this weeks game though...along with our selections and sub strategy.
If Pittonet is available there is probably a decision needing to be made.
But we should probably treat  it in terms of this game only in this thread and not the long term.