AFL Rd 10 2023 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

[Lods]

No doubt there are different perspectives. Some say he's passionate. I say he's ill informed, presumptuous and irrational, and endangering his own health. It's like I said earlier - some folks seem to be willing participants in an abusive relationship.

The funny thing is he wouldn't rate us as 'true' supporters.
He'd say we don't care enough.
That we accept mediocrity and are the worst thing that could happen to the club.
There are a whole range of emotions associated with supporting a football club.
Who is right and who is wrong is in the eyes of the beholder.
At the moment I suspect he's not Pat Malone.
We'll have a problem when there are even more Pats
And blokes like Tom Elliott will kick it along.

[PaulP]

The funny thing is he wouldn't rate us as 'true' supporters.
He'd say we don't care enough.
That we accept mediocrity and are the worst thing that could happen to the club.
There are a whole range of emotions associated with supporting a football club.
Who is right and who is wrong is in the eyes of the beholder.
At the moment I suspect he's not Pat Malone.
We'll have a problem when there are even more Pats
And blokes like Tom Elliott will kick it along.

I agree. He probably does think those things. But I'm not convinced that type of behaviour is anything other than selfish. I don't believe it leads to anything good. I don't believe it represents any real understanding of football clubs, or football players or football in general. It's just a selfish vent. Supporters need to accept their agency and be more responsible. Those types of outbursts lead to coach sackings and more. People from the club read the temperature of the room from many sources : forums like this, direct contact from fans, talkback radio (God forbid) etc.

[Macca37]

I agree. He probably does think those things. But I'm not convinced that type of behaviour is anything other than selfish. I don't believe it leads to anything good. I don't believe it represents any real understanding of football clubs, or football players or football in general. It's just a selfish vent. Supporters need to accept their agency and be more responsible. Those types of outbursts lead to coach sackings and more. People from the club read the temperature of the room from many sources : forums like this, direct contact from fans, talkback radio (God forbid) etc.

I don't understand your saying it's a selfish vent.  He sounds like a long-time supporter who has bought into the current message of the club that we are finally on the up and up, and based on that information he has parted with hard earned cash for membership.

And has the club delivered?  Definitely not.  The Collingwood game was more of the same litany of basic skill errors, the usual brain fades etc, delivered by a team that had no pride and for the most part seemed detached from proceedings.

Fans such as Snapper help fill the financial coffers of clubs.  If the Carlton side keeps presenting at future matches with the same apathetic attitude then the club may get a rude awakening at the end of the season when it calls on members to dip into their wallets for next year's membership.

[PaulP]

I don't understand your saying it's a selfish vent.  He sounds like a long-time supporter who has bought into the current message of the club that we are finally on the up and up, and based on that information he has parted with hard earned cash for membership.

And has the club delivered?  Definitely not.  The Collingwood game was more of the same litany of basic skill errors, the usual brain fades etc, delivered by a team that had no pride and for the most part seemed detached from proceedings.

Fans such as Snapper help fill the financial coffers of clubs.  If the Carlton side keeps presenting at future matches with the same apathetic attitude then the club may get a rude awakening at the end of the season when it calls on members to dip into their wallets for next year's membership.

I don't agree that the players are apathetic and I don't believe they lack pride. And I don't believe that the genuine efforts of dozens upon dozens of people at the club should be denigrated by that sort of nonsense. There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts. One must legitimately ask what a membership fee, entry to the game etc., actually buys you. It doesn't buy you the right to spout dribble, or to insult and belittle others and treat them like sh1t.

In a commercial, competitive environment, clubs are in the business of selling hope. Hope can be the allure of playing finals, it can be the allure of a top coach, young No1 draft pick etc. Clubs will always try to give supporters some reason to believe. You won't ever find a club that will tell you this season will be a write off, don't bother, come back next year. I don't believe everything the club says - why can't Mr Snapper apply some very basic critical thinking skills and wait until he sees some evidence of improvement before he parts with is hard earned ? Oh wait, he's from talkback land, so.............

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

[Lods]

There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts.

I'm not sure about that part.
For some supporters the Carlton football club is a large part of their life from their earliest memories until the day they die.
They'll perform 'lucky' rituals on match days, cry after losses, name their pets and children for favourite players, struggle to go to work on Mondays after a loss and tip over the water cooler if someone says the wrong thing.
The club song will be played at their funeral and they'll be buried in their polos, jumpers and scarfs.
(But that's just me) ;D

Players and coaches are just employees.
Many supported or played for other sides before they came to Carlton, some will play for other teams when they leave.
Some will eventually become rusted on.
They'll be the face of Carlton, they'll treasure the memories and turn up to flag reunions, but in a lot of cases the bonds they form will be for other team-mates rather than the club.
They'll hurt in losses for that reason, not for the love of a jumper.
Some will have very short careers.
Their feelings for the club will be transient.
They'll laugh with the opposition after games, while the fans cry in the stands.

[Macca37]

I don't agree that the players are apathetic and I don't believe they lack pride. And I don't believe that the genuine efforts of dozens upon dozens of people at the club should be denigrated by that sort of nonsense. There is no doubt in my mind that the players and coaches carry the hurt way more than armchair experts. One must legitimately ask what a membership fee, entry to the game etc., actually buys you. It doesn't buy you the right to spout dribble, or to insult and belittle others and treat them like sh1t.

In a commercial, competitive environment, clubs are in the business of selling hope. Hope can be the allure of playing finals, it can be the allure of a top coach, young No1 draft pick etc. Clubs will always try to give supporters some reason to believe. You won't ever find a club that will tell you this season will be a write off, don't bother, come back next year. I don't believe everything the club says - why can't Mr Snapper apply some very basic critical thinking skills and wait until he sees some evidence of improvement before he parts with is hard earned ? Oh wait, he's from talkback land, so.............

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

Let's agree to disagree.

Carlton has a paid up membership of some 80 thousand.  I believe that they believe membership entitles them to entry into a ground, no more, no less.

Whether they cheer, clap, jeer, shout at  the umpire, or opposition players or even their own team players, contact radio hosts, newspapers etc to give their opinions is totally unrelated to their membership.

Their actions are no different from those supporters, also as passionate, who do not have memberships but attend matches on a regular basis.

As for Mr Snapper and his failure to apply some very basic critical thinking skills, probably it is caused by what you say the clubs are selling - hope.  In the Carlton context that word could be replaced by 'wishful thinking'.  For people to buy into "hope" or "wishful thinking" occasionally requires the suspension of basic critical thinking skills. 

As for the true believer, the supporter who turns up to every match decked out in jumper and beanie and believing against all the odds that Carlton will win each game, basic critical thinking skills have never been a prerequisite.

I agree with you that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing, but without them the AFL would not survive.

[LP]

I am 100% convinced that players, coaches and clubs in general must find supporters to be a mixed blessing.

This may be the differential between the marketing and football departments, one profits from hope and expectation, the other needs performance.

Historically, at Carlton it looks to me like marketing rule$, profit before performance. It's the only thing that explains the coaches getting it in the neck so frequently. This recent outburst from Mathieson confirms to me that the Old Carlton still hasn't learnt it lessons and let go, they think they can abuse, bully and buy the way to success, pretty much like those callers!

This is why the Filth have it over pretty much every other club. Rain, hail or shine the Filth supporters support the players, it's drummed into them from early days you don't sledge your own. They turn on their own for sprouting the type of vitriol some Carlton fans want to openly propagate. But it took 30 years of Colliwobbles to beat the negativity and vitriol out of them.

Maybe we can learn from that, or we can ignore it and perhaps suffer the same fate, but there is no buying or bullying our way out of this, those days are long long gone!

[PaulP]

I'm not sure about that part.
For some supporters the Carlton football club is a large part of their life from their earliest memories until the day they die.
They'll perform 'lucky' rituals on match days, cry after losses, name their pets and children for favourite players, struggle to go to work on Mondays after a loss and tip over the water cooler if someone says the wrong thing.
The club song will be played at their funeral and they'll be buried in their polos, jumpers and scarfs.
(But that's just me) ;D

Players and coaches are just employees.
Many supported or played for other sides before they came to Carlton, some will play for other teams when they leave.
Some will eventually become rusted on.
They'll be the face of Carlton, they'll treasure the memories and turn up to flag reunions, but in a lot of cases the bonds they form will be for other team-mates rather than the club.
They'll hurt in losses for that reason, not for the love of a jumper.
Some will have very short careers.
Their feelings for the club will be transient.
They'll laugh with the opposition after games, while the fans cry in the stands.

The behaviours in your first paragraph have a lot in common with organised religion - that's the first thing I thought of. The second thing is that if the right (or should I say the wrong) circumstances are all in play at the same time, Mr Snapper becomes Mr Snapped, and loses his nut completely, and does something drastic like those South American soccer fans. There's no invisible bubble that protects AFL from soccer. Tribal identity markers are very real (not necessarily based on ethnicity), the same passions are aroused, the same behaviours reinforced and expected.

And I disagree with your last point. Players and coaches at Carlton give significantly more time (physical, mental, emotional) than any fan, even if it's by necessity. Most players that move on are either retired, traded, or delisted. A small number of course move because they want to. And most coaches only leave because they get sacked. Fans focus on whinging and whining and making sure the world knows how much the club hurts them. Players and coaches focus on making themselves and their team mates better. Try rocking up to work and having 50, 60, 70, 80,000 fans telling you you're a piece of cr@p, you're only in it for the money, you don't deserve your pay cheque etc., and see how you like it

Players and coaches are professional, and they have to play the game. Of course they will talk about how great their new club is. They can hardly say otherwise.

[Lods]

The behaviours in your first paragraph have a lot in common with organised religion - that's the first thing I thought of. The second thing is that if the right (or should I say the wrong) circumstances are all in play at the same time, Mr Snapper becomes Mr Snapped, and loses his nut completely, and does something drastic like those South American soccer fans. There's no invisible bubble that protects AFL from soccer. Tribal identity markers are very real (not necessarily based on ethnicity), the same passions are aroused, the same behaviours reinforced and expected.

And I disagree with your last point. Players and coaches at Carlton give significantly more time (physical, mental, emotional) than any fan, even if it's by necessity. Most players that move on are either retired, traded, or delisted. A small number of course move because they want to. And most coaches only leave because they get sacked. Fans focus on whinging and whining and making sure the world knows how much the club hurts them. Players and coaches focus on making themselves and their team mates better. Try rocking up to work and having 50, 60, 70, 80,000 fans telling you you're a piece of cr@p, you're only in it for the money, you don't deserve your pay cheque etc., and see how you like it

Players and coaches are professional, and they have to play the game. Of course they will talk about how great their new club is. They can hardly say otherwise.

We'll have to agree to disagree..because I think you're wrong on every point.
Your concentrating on the negative aspects of being a supporter way too much.
Supporters come in all shapes and sizes and the way they support differs wildly.

The behaviours I described in the first post were a bit of a joke based on extremes, but some quite sane and sensible supporters do actually engage in some of those behaviours.
We played the club's song at my Mum's funeral because the club and game were a large part of her life.

Football is a 'religion' for some folks, but religion in itself isn't a bad thing, and fills a spot in a lot of folk's lives. There are bad 'religions' but footy isn't one of them.

We don't have the extremes of violence, never had, despite nearly 200 years of Australian football and that supporter passion has been evident all along. One of the reasons for that is the game moves so quickly with lots of scoring, and the fans can have highs and lows within minutes and are pretty much free within reason to express their joy and disappointment, unlike soccer where there are often long pauses between scores.

And while a lot of ex-Carlton footballers are followers of the club, while they play and even once they finish their love, passion and hurt at the losses would be matched by the fans.
I suspect our guys are already talking, and focussed, about Sydney (I hope so) while three days later, we supporters are still suffering from the Collingwood loss.

[PaulP]

My current position is similar to a coach like Hardwick. You back your players and coaches in, and defend them as best you can. Give them the BOD, and trust that they are motivated by doing their best for all stakeholders, until it becomes evidently clear they're not. You can be passionate in this way, much like Hardwick was, and that's a much better way of using passion than spouting baseless, negative ill informed drivel on talk back IMO