General Discussions

[kruddler]

You beat me to it, Thryleon, and much more concisely than my edit ;D

A prejudice or bias may lead to the correct conclusion on the odd occasion but then again a broken clock is right 2 times a day. Maybe someone who believes all black people will rob you on the streets may benefit by avoiding a particular black person who intended to do so, but that doesn’t mean his prejudice is vindicated.

Sure, but that also doesn't mean that gut instinct is always wrong either.....or more likely to be wrong.
Not suggesting its 100% right, but to tar it all with the same prejudice brush is not right either.

Policework (at least historically) relied on gut instincts to point people in the right direction when reading people and/or solving cases. They used that well trained gut to sniff out a direction to help them gather evidence to prove their gut correct.
You tell a cop that he is prejudice in the same manner you did with LP and see how that works out for ya.  :o

There should be a word (i'm sure the germans have one) for a well-trained gut that is largely correct. Again, this is not specific to LP and his assertions about Coon etc, just in general terms.

[Mav]

If the cops follow the Sherlock Holmes tradition, then their instincts are worthy of respect. If they follow the racial profiling practices that seem to be all the rage in the USA, then that’s prejudice rather than intuition. And no, I wouldn’t want to point that out to a cop in the USA because apparently they have the right to dish out a bit of “attitude adjustment” if they feel disrespected. But I guess I would be okay anyway as I’m white. Perhaps I wouldn’t get the full 8 minutes of neck compression.

[Thryleon]

Sure, but that also doesn't mean that gut instinct is always wrong either.....or more likely to be wrong.
Not suggesting its 100% right, but to tar it all with the same prejudice brush is not right either.

Policework (at least historically) relied on gut instincts to point people in the right direction when reading people and/or solving cases. They used that well trained gut to sniff out a direction to help them gather evidence to prove their gut correct.
You tell a cop that he is prejudice in the same manner you did with LP and see how that works out for ya.  :o

There should be a word (i'm sure the germans have one) for a well-trained gut that is largely correct. Again, this is not specific to LP and his assertions about Coon etc, just in general terms.

Its called intuition I believe.

Not prejudice or bias.  Prejudice or bias declares an outcome and then will exclude facts until it arrives at the desired outcome.  Its actually a different phenomenon, and my point was made to support yours not go against it.  I think Mav interpreted it the way he wanted to in support of his own point, which there is nothing wrong with that, but its an example of what Im talking about.

[LP]

People tend to assume a political / social position then proceed with a hypothesis to support the view they have taken without regard to contradictory evidence. Sometimes the stance is a case of whatever they encountered first, sometimes it's an obligatory position to support an ideology or financial strategy.

For example, looking at the recent history of baby formula / milk powder production highlights some glaring contradictions in the claims used to justify the job losses over the cheese. Not only have we bumped up milk powder and baby formula production, we offered to cover the US shortfall, a shortfall caused by corporate decisions not by resource availability. And we still export to China and SE Asia as well!

In fact with very very little effort you could easily go as far to assert this cheese fiasco is the latest corporate rinse and repeat of the very same actions that lead to falling supply of baby formula accompanied by massively increased profit margins. (Less production / lower capital costs / lower direct costs / static demand / higher prices / bigger profits / bigger corporate psychopath bonus. ) The application of lessons learned by/from the oil / fuel industry, now being applied to just about any basic commodity item by people who have no long term outlook beyond their gross annual salary for the coming financial year.

So ask yourself, are the job losses an effect of falling primary production, or are the job losses an effect of falling milk prices to primary producers? Because the root cause is significantly different, one is fundamentally a force of nature, while the other is triggered by the compounding of a deliberate corporate decision to maximise profit.

I can list any number of similar scenarios from the Packaging, Food or Renewable Energy industries. Packaging is particularly relevant given recent announcements from Mondelez, Nestle and other large corporates.

[Baggers]

What evidence do you say LP was using, Baggers? Intuition or gut instinct is great if it is based on evidence. But intuition or gut instinct which isn’t based on evidence is just prejudice or bias.

I didn't feel the need to categorize ...it was an opinion, which he's entitled to, as you are to disagree based on your criterion, just no demeaning is needed. When we engage in put-downs we dilute our argument.

[Baggers]

If the cops follow the Sherlock Holmes tradition, then their instincts are worthy of respect. If they follow the racial profiling practices that seem to be all the rage in the USA, then that’s prejudice rather than intuition.

Yes. That racial profiling you mention has nothing to do with intuition... just pure, unadulterated prejudice.

[Baggers]

Perhaps an interesting question might be where does prejudice come from? What is at the core (psychologically speaking) of prejudice?

[Lods]

Perhaps an interesting question might be where does prejudice come from? What is at the core (psychologically speaking) of prejudice?

Difference!

Many years ago something like racism was based on the feeling of superiority of one group over another.
Nowadays it's more about a 'difference' and a lack of understanding and appreciation of another group.

[kruddler]

Its called intuition I believe.

Not prejudice or bias.  Prejudice or bias declares an outcome and then will exclude facts until it arrives at the desired outcome.  Its actually a different phenomenon, and my point was made to support yours not go against it.  I think Mav interpreted it the way he wanted to in support of his own point, which there is nothing wrong with that, but its an example of what Im talking about.

I took your comments the way you intended them. Just clarifying the initial question. Not sure how Mav was reading it, but yes, backs up our argument that he did take it differently.

Had the word intuition been used instead of prejudice/bias and gut instinct, it wouldn't have such a negative bias associated with it, which was at the core of the question.

Twice Mav has shown his prejudice/bias (albeit unintended) by bringing up black people and their struggles. This was in reference to the word stereotype i used. His bias implies that all stereotypes have negative connotations, which is untrue. 'All Asians are good at Maths' or 'All black people have big.......*feet*' are equally as valid examples.
Maybe Mav just views the world through a more negative, untrusting lense than others? But this isn't about him or LP.

[Mav]

By the way, there doesn’t seem to be great evidence behind the “police gut” idea. The research suggests that police officers don’t get better at spotting lies or reading body language as they accrue experience. And they aren’t necessarily better than others. The much more reliable method of investigating is to accumulate evidence and look for inconsistencies. Unfortunately, US TV shows love to promote the idea of the cop with an infallible ability to spot the liar. Lie to Me had a body language expert who would have a Eureka moment in each episode when a single observation would reveal to him the guilty person. In reality, one observation isn’t reliable and behaviour has to be assessed against the base line for that individual rather than some population standard. Otherwise, police will inevitably suspect the oddball like Lindy Chamberlain and try to mould the evidence to convict her.

Criminal Minds raised behavioural analysis to the level where it’s stars could tell police what food the “unsubs” like and what side of the bed they sleep on. In reality, the information the real unit compiles just paints a picture of the average weather than the particular unsub. When there was a sniper on the loose who had killed a number of random people, the FBI concluded that he was a lone gunman who was white. That was a reasonable guess based on historical information: the great majority of serial killers are white and they usually act alone. Ultimately the police caught a father and son team who were black.

Again, an alert copper is an open-minded one who pays particular attention to things that might go unnoticed by the lazy copper. That’s the Sherlock Holmes tradition that Columbo honoured.