General Discussions

[kruddler]

I have watched the talks.  You can't throw a blanket over everyone but those people with both bits you mention aren't trans or don't fit that gender construct.

I watched the talks.  Saw them from start to finish.  Have had these conversations with people.  For something that is supposedly based on science a lot of it based on subjective opinion of "im in the wrong body".  The woman born with gonads is clearly not in that category.

You'll also note that identity politics is a bigger part of this than the I was born in an ambiguous body.

Point is, nature stuffs up. Those people are proof enough that what you are saying doesn't stack up in those instances.

By extension, it's possible that nature stuffs up in other ways that are less obvious.

I'm not saying enrolments who wants to transition has a legitimate claim.
People have transitioned into reptiles, babies, aliens and whatever else that doesn't stack up to science.
However,  you need to judge each case on its merits.

[Thryleon]

Point is, nature stuffs up. Those people are proof enough that what you are saying doesn't stack up in those instances.

By extension, it's possible that nature stuffs up in other ways that are less obvious.

I'm not saying enrolments who wants to transition has a legitimate claim.
People have transitioned into reptiles, babies, aliens and whatever else that doesn't stack up to science.
However,  you need to judge each case on its merits.

Science doesn't care what you believe.

The fact that nature makes errors in some cases doesn't explain the subjective nature away in others.

Weve discussed science a little bit here but the science can't actually tell me someone was born in the wrong body.

[LP]

Psychology asks a question and examines the answer for a pattern of understanding, questions come from people, the answers come from people and the analysis or interpretation ultimately comes from a person. It's not like a physical science where assertions and observations have to match a physical state, algorithm or formula.

The evidence in studies of the mind is always subjective, there is a significant problem when those interactions and discussions are combine with physical sciences, it is inherently dominated by the subjective!

Much of the current debate isn't even scientific, it is politics / social politics dressed up in a veneer of science!

You can mount a philosophical or logical debate about some of the various claims, but the problem is to do that with integrity you have to assume that the people involved act logically, and we know that often they don't!

Carl Sagan was 100% correct when he made the statement, "The more extraordinary a claim is, the greater the burden of proof that is associated with it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!"

[kruddler]

Science doesn't care what you believe.

The fact that nature makes errors in some cases doesn't explain the subjective nature away in others.

Weve discussed science a little bit here but the science can't actually tell me someone was born in the wrong body.

I already stated that some people make a call on that stuff with less than scientific backing aka transforming into lizards, babies, aliens etc.

This is not  one size fits all.

In saying some cases are legitimate.
You seem to be saying that none are.

[Thryleon]

I already stated that some people make a call on that stuff with less than scientific backing aka transforming into lizards, babies, aliens etc.

This is not  one size fits all.

In saying some cases are legitimate.
You seem to be saying that none are.

Lizards, Babies, aliens....  Not even in the same ball park.  Those wants are something else that shouldn't be entertained when the surgery or money could be better spent, and serves only to feed the mentality of "I am different, I am special, look at me" which is the only thing I think might correlate with some trans people.


I think you will find, that your idea of what I am saying is just one component of a wider problem with this discussion.

I am saying, that some of this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and people idealise the human experience and confuse that with some sort of identity which is just another construct of their own creation (with some additional programming).

Society has taught us that traditional gender roles are gone.  This is something we are embracing as a society, so by extension, which gender you identify as becomes really quite irrelevant in that world with a few exceptions likely surrounding procreation.  I think you will find that I am analysing this on a much more philosophical level than most people assume, because i come across as bigoted and potentially misogynistic but it actually isn't my intention.

Its my way.  I like to pull things apart, unpack them, because that's key to how I understand it, and I cannot understand how trans has become so prevalent in society, and the answer to me is clear as the day is long and I wonder why this isn't really being reinforced anywhere.  It's just become accepted that people trans.  Sure, that's not inherently an issue for the majority, but is it right?

The idea of what a male or female is, is 100% part of that issue.  Think about it, if you aren't a male, or aren't a female, what is your picture of the other gender?  How do they behave?  What clothes do they wear?  Thing is, is any of that even relevant to a gender, identity and know how someone would feel in a female/male world?

The answer is, it isn't.  Think about it.  I have raised this point before.  People don't actually debate it, they just dismiss it.  How can you dismiss your body, without truly having an understanding of what the other gender feels like?  The irony in that, is me dismissing a trans person for feeling that way, but that at least is understandable.  I cannot fathom their idea, thinking or understand it.  I can envision what its like to be blind.  Go to a dark place, turn the lights off, and then blindfold yourself.  Or even close your eyes.  That, you can feel and experience briefly but you never really understand that this is all you will experience if you do it and the wont even get the full experience of learning braille, unless you truly experience blindness, you dont know what it feels like. 

Being deaf is much more difficult to replicate, because our hearing is quite keen and you cant turn off the volume of the world.  Being lame we all experience in some degree for periods in our lives, but we don't know what its like to truly move around without a limb.  We briefly get a snapshot of these worlds if we want to experience it, but we don't know how it feels to be in that world 100% of the time, and this is where I tend to struggle with the idea that someone can really ever identify as a gender they don't biologically experience.

The thing is, none of us are really going to change tune.  We do agree on one aspect of this.  I will entertain that these people identify as, and refer to them as their gender of choice if that makes them happy, because I am not willing to be hurtful to people if that's what validates them.  I do question whether or not I should be validating that, but I am compartmentalising that component of it and hence why I bring it up here.  To any one trans person, it is fundamentally not my business.

Do I at least sound reasonable?

[northernblue]

LP, a much improved elaboration.

[kruddler]

Lizards, Babies, aliens....  Not even in the same ball park.  Those wants are something else that shouldn't be entertained when the surgery or money could be better spent, and serves only to feed the mentality of "I am different, I am special, look at me" which is the only thing I think might correlate with some trans people.


I think you will find, that your idea of what I am saying is just one component of a wider problem with this discussion.

I am saying, that some of this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and people idealise the human experience and confuse that with some sort of identity which is just another construct of their own creation (with some additional programming).

Society has taught us that traditional gender roles are gone.  This is something we are embracing as a society, so by extension, which gender you identify as becomes really quite irrelevant in that world with a few exceptions likely surrounding procreation.  I think you will find that I am analysing this on a much more philosophical level than most people assume, because i come across as bigoted and potentially misogynistic but it actually isn't my intention.

Its my way.  I like to pull things apart, unpack them, because that's key to how I understand it, and I cannot understand how trans has become so prevalent in society, and the answer to me is clear as the day is long and I wonder why this isn't really being reinforced anywhere.  It's just become accepted that people trans.  Sure, that's not inherently an issue for the majority, but is it right?

The idea of what a male or female is, is 100% part of that issue.  Think about it, if you aren't a male, or aren't a female, what is your picture of the other gender?  How do they behave?  What clothes do they wear?  Thing is, is any of that even relevant to a gender, identity and know how someone would feel in a female/male world?

The answer is, it isn't.  Think about it.  I have raised this point before.  People don't actually debate it, they just dismiss it.  How can you dismiss your body, without truly having an understanding of what the other gender feels like?  The irony in that, is me dismissing a trans person for feeling that way, but that at least is understandable.  I cannot fathom their idea, thinking or understand it.  I can envision what its like to be blind.  Go to a dark place, turn the lights off, and then blindfold yourself.  Or even close your eyes.  That, you can feel and experience briefly but you never really understand that this is all you will experience if you do it and the wont even get the full experience of learning braille, unless you truly experience blindness, you dont know what it feels like. 

Being deaf is much more difficult to replicate, because our hearing is quite keen and you cant turn off the volume of the world.  Being lame we all experience in some degree for periods in our lives, but we don't know what its like to truly move around without a limb.  We briefly get a snapshot of these worlds if we want to experience it, but we don't know how it feels to be in that world 100% of the time, and this is where I tend to struggle with the idea that someone can really ever identify as a gender they don't biologically experience.

The thing is, none of us are really going to change tune.  We do agree on one aspect of this.  I will entertain that these people identify as, and refer to them as their gender of choice if that makes them happy, because I am not willing to be hurtful to people if that's what validates them.  I do question whether or not I should be validating that, but I am compartmentalising that component of it and hence why I bring it up here.  To any one trans person, it is fundamentally not my business.

Do I at least sound reasonable?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I think about things the same way you do.

I guess the parts we differ in is this.

You say it's more normal and thus it's becoming more normal.
Correct.....in part for the reasons you say.
However, in part because people feel they can be honest now too.
When being gay became more acceptable, did that turn more people gay or did it allows those who already were gay the freedom to come out, thus 'increasing' the amount of gay people. Similar imo.

Now going back to your gender identity qualification question.
There is no one answer that satisfies this question. I'll throw a couple things at you to think about.

1. Does it matter what they think or feel?
2. By extension, what is your take on people who suffer from (I think it's called) Alien limb syndrome? These are the people who have such an issue with one part of their body that they think its not theirs and seek to have it amputated. Only then can they feel 'whole' as such...and happy.
3. This highlights what would be considered a 'wiring' issue within the brain. Some people who have foot fetishs are believed to because of a similar wiring issue within the brain. That has people obsessing over a non-traditionally sexualising part. Is it for you to say that their feeling of that is wrong? Could they qualify why the feel that way? Could you understand if they did? They just know how they feel.
4. Does it matter WHY they think or feel that way?

[Thryleon]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I think about things the same way you do.

I guess the parts we differ in is this.

You say it's more normal and thus it's becoming more normal.
Correct.....in part for the reasons you say.
However, in part because people feel they can be honest now too.

 

Not exactly.  My body has shaped my identity more than my identity has, so I will never understand this mode of thinking of the body is wrong.  These people dont seem to have that experience for whatever reason or if they do, its to make them think its wrong.  Nope, its yours.  I was the fat kid, and I did my best to turn that around, but after 30 years of exercise I was in the category of not fat for less than about 5 years all up.  As soon as my knee started giving me issues, the fat me returned.  Thats genetics at work, nothing else.  Im currently 100kg and 178cm.  For those playing at home, I way less than Cripps, and am roughly a foot shorter than him.  Oh, and I dont look fat either.  Over weight yes, but not fat.  Only heavy training changed it, and had me at 80kgs with about 3 less cm when I was in high school. 

When being gay became more acceptable, did that turn more people gay or did it allows those who already were gay the freedom to come out, thus 'increasing' the amount of gay people. Similar imo.

https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-lesbianism
The word “lesbian” comes from the name of the Greek island Lesbos, where Sappho was born. She was an ancient Greek woman who wrote poems that included homosexual themes. The term “sapphic,” named for this poet, also refers to female homosexuality.

I disagree on this point.  Sexuality was way more hidden and less important.  It didnt define people the way it does today.  See an earlier point I made about people needing to be special or different.

Now going back to your gender identity qualification question.
There is no one answer that satisfies this question. I'll throw a couple things at you to think about.

1. Does it matter what they think or feel?

I need some context for this.  Im not sure if you are asking this about trans or gay people.  Largely, what an individual thinks or feels, is a bit different to the collective.  I know Gay people who are not openly Gay and wear it like a badge of honour, but will tell those they trust about it, and are happier just being themselves.  On this point I am in furious agreement.  We shouldnt see trans/gender, we should see human being X, and worry about their character.  Thing is, sexual orientation says less about character.  I am in the wrong body I think speaks for a bit of a problem to do with mental health and identity.  When I state I know one trans person, it isnt knowing of one person, and having spoken to a person, its I know about this person on a much deeper level.  I worked in night club down commercial road in a past life when I was youngster and met a variety of weird and wonderful people.

2. By extension, what is your take on people who suffer from (I think it's called) Alien limb syndrome? These are the people who have such an issue with one part of their body that they think its not theirs and seek to have it amputated. Only then can they feel 'whole' as such...and happy.

  First time I am hearing of such a phenomenon, but it lives in a level of ridiculous to me.  These people dont need to lose a limb, these people have serious mental health issues, and need to be supported to work through this thinking not entertained and find a hatchet.  Perhaps they should be taken to a place where people have been born without a limb, confronted by them, and should be forced to explain their thinking to people who didnt get that opportunity.  Perhaps this would be abusive.  I am not necessarily nice about this, but whenever I hear of someone who has been given a golden opportunity to live a functional normal life and choose to throw it away I feel nothing but anger, because how dare you selfish individual do something like that, when one of the boys I went to school with died at age 18 because a brain tumour had other ideas for him.  Ive heard of too many tradegies in my lifetime and feel that these people who elect to do something completely stupid (yes I lack empathy for this and no Im not sorry about it) owe it to others NOT to do this.

3. This highlights what would be considered a 'wiring' issue within the brain. Some people who have foot fetishs are believed to because of a similar wiring issue within the brain. That has people obsessing over a non-traditionally sexualising part. Is it for you to say that their feeling of that is wrong? Could they qualify why the feel that way? Could you understand if they did? They just know how they feel.

I suppose Paedophiles feel the same way.  Should we green light that too? They will feel ok with it, wont they? 

FIX THE WIRING

4. Does it matter WHY they think or feel that way?

Absofukinglutely it does.

[LP]

I think this debate is now starting to highlight a fundamental problem with many of the moderate ideologies.

[member=105]Thryleon[/member]‍ has also made a nice comparison between the concepts of sexuality versus gender, and how that can lead into a very slippery slope of justifying a behaviour via a physical state.

I just can't see how it can ever be the case that there isn't some line that is either being crossed or manipulated to the benefit of an outlier, and let's be clear about this, we are talking in most case about outliers not the majority. At some stage the societal price will be too high, and if you don't believe that to be true examine the public behaviour during the pandemic.

In a post a long time back I've already touched on the psychology that leads many of the people involved in this debate to split form the mainstream, a strong desire to be different but included, so much so that whenever a category becomes too populous they create a new one and claim to be part of it, so strong is the desire to be "apart yet included". It's a psychology that is driven by a strong desire to be unique, a one off, something part of but different from, ................... special!

[kruddler]

[member=105]Thryleon[/member]
Firstly, the gay stuff.
I know where the term comes from, but that is irrelevant.
The fact it is so old is also irrelevant, however, something else that is 'old' is the native american gender definitions which we've talked about before.

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

Same logic to more trans people now.

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

2. https://www.healthline.com/health/alien-hand-syndrome
As suggested, its more about a wiring issue in the brain.
But they simply can't change the way they feel. You can't really comprehend how they feel. But they feel that way and it can't be changed.....unless.....something changes physically.

3. The difference is, as mentioned above, it doesn't hurt anyone. It is not against any rules/laws and it makes them feel better about themselves and live a better life.

4. Expand...