CV and mad panic behaviour

[LP]

Yes I've read quite a few Bell's Palsy R&D articles in recent years, and I believe Lloyd had it previously before the pandemic.

I had always thought that men and women were affected equally, but apparently when looking at age distribution I was surprised to read how common it is for younger women. Also it's under-diagnosed, the speculation is that many do not even realise they have had it as the symptoms and side-effects can be very mild and are usually not permanent, a twitchy feeling in an eyelid or eyebrow might be all people notice. There have been some suggestions contraceptive pills are also a contributing cause in young women, but these all seem to be correlation rather than causation, and the researchers pointed out that the same correlation could easily point to increasing sexual activity in adolescents and this might point to some commonly encountered viruses.

[Mav]

When I had it, the first symptom was it changed my perceptions of taste: I was at a restaurant and I was p!55ed off that the meal I'd ordered had an overpowering taste of orange. The woman I was with tasted it and said there was no orange taste at all. Then later that night I woke up with the pillow case touching my eyeball. From there, my inability to close my eye was very obvious and I needed an eye patch and one side of my face including the corner of my mouth just dropped. The way the doctor explained it then was a facial nerve had died but it would regrow in time. I was warned, though, that sometimes the regrown nerves didn't connect correctly with the existing ones, like rewiring the electrics in a car and getting left and right indicators mixed up. An example, apparently, was the TV journalist Paul Lyneham who had a weird grimace when he tried to smile. Fortunately for me it all went back to normal.

While causation still seems to be a mystery, viruses seem to be a suspect. In my case, I hadn't had any flu or other virus AFAIK. Is there some virus which is asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy? Could those who have recently contracted Bell's Palsy have suffered breakthrough Covid infections that were asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy? As the mRNA vaccines don't contain live virus, would they even have the ability to kill facial nerves? What are the chances that an immune response generated by this vaccine would be so specific as to kill facial nerves and nothing else? It's all very speculative but very interesting all the same.

[Thryleon]

I know some here are clinging desperately to the fact that the vaccines are perfect and cause no harm, but the fact of the matter is that there is anecdotal accounts of young fit and previously healthy people suddenly suffering bouts of myocarditis, and bells palsy in many walks of life.

I know one nurse who suffered Bells on her booster and is no longer allowed to work onsite even with the ATAGI exemption, and is reverting to booking patients through outpatient clinics.  I also know of a guy in his early 30's who ended up with myocarditis who was previously fit and healthy and was in the fitness industry and has a gym in his house at home.

I don't know enough about all of it to make a judgement either way, but trying to explain these things away as correlation serves no purpose.

Thing is, there is an economic reality to all of this.  The vaccine was pushed out, because someone would have had to perform a cost benefit analysis of pros and cons of getting vaccinated in gen pop, vs gen pop getting covid and requiring treatment.

That analysis will include, greater presenations in ICU, vs greater presentations in perceived side effects, vs cost of producing and implementation of vaccines vs not doing it in terms of outcomes for all at a general level.  This would not have been done using conservative numbers, but modelled on an aggressive form of the virus causing quite a lot of angst, which may or may not have come to fruition (hard to argue how it would have been here, vs 3rd world countries).

Someone in the know made those choices, and did so having to weigh up the fact that all of this isn't free and there is a bill to foot.  At some point, the percentages will be low enough to make the vaccinations the lesser of two evils.  The other being an unknown quantity to start with built on modelling.  This isnt to state that the process was corrupted, but just a plain old risk assessment using factors that may or may not have been true for all people.

[LP]

While causation still seems to be a mystery, viruses seem to be a suspect. In my case, I hadn't had any flu or other virus AFAIK. Is there some virus which is asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy?

The Chicken Pox, Mumps and several other Herpes Zoster like viruses have a strong association and might not present any other symptoms at all, or even something trivial like a cold sore. I believe at least 25% to 50% of us carry them as they are endemic, and most will have no symptoms at all.

Could those who have recently contracted Bell's Palsy have suffered breakthrough Covid infections that were asymptomatic other than initiating Bell's Palsy?

As I understand the literature this is a distinct possibility for most of the serious COVID symptoms, which is why those "COVID is just a cold" claims made by the Trumpians are so innately stupid.

As the mRNA vaccines don't contain live virus, would they even have the ability to kill facial nerves? What are the chances that an immune response generated by this vaccine would be so specific as to kill facial nerves and nothing else? It's all very speculative but very interesting all the same.

Yes it is interesting, but maybe it's unlikely an inflammatory response that was so mild as to be asymptomatic could lead to the required level of apoptosis. But I suppose given most cases are not permanent it's not impossible, in recent years inflammatory conditions are being identified as the big contributor to many of these conditions. But to assert it's vaccine, as Barrett tried to stir up in the media is correlation / coincidence. I note Barrett has backtracked today and so he should!

[LP]

I know some here are clinging desperately to the fact that the vaccines are perfect and cause no harm, but the fact of the matter is that there is anecdotal accounts of young fit and previously healthy people suddenly suffering bouts of myocarditis, and bells palsy in many walks of life.

Nobody has claimed the vaccines are perfect.

The numbers of people suffering Myocarditis and Bell's Palsy is normal, the rare occurrences associated with COVID and or vaccine are low compared to the normal occurrence rate. The case numbers have not statistically significantly increased, and it's normal for the age group between teenage and 60 to the be group primarily affected.

I suspect most cases of Bell's Palsy and Myocarditis are sudden, I don't know anyone who planned it ahead of time and made a reservation.

What has changed is that social media has given them something to blame.

[Mav]

Remember that "anecdotal evidence" was what led to the false claim that the MMR vaccine caused autism. No one should bother with anecdotal evidence: at best, it might identify areas in which actual research should be conducted.

[LP]

Remember that "anecdotal evidence" was what led to the false claim that the MMR vaccine caused autism. No one should bother with anecdotal evidence: at best, it might identify areas in which actual research should be conducted.

Yes, that is the definition of a correlation, however we have to remember that was also the act of a nefarious actor who put profit ahead of welfare.

The correlation is the intuitive part of the R&D caper, at which point he science should take over and make a derivative finding, but that's the big money spend many diseases will never see.

btw., The vaccine related myocarditis is very very specific, they can test for it, there is no need to speculate, in fact if they wanted to they now know enough that they can test in advance, but the very low occurrence rate does not justify the expense and it turns out now they know what causes it they also know the effective treatment. Early diagnosis though is still critical, so if you are unwell to the point of being breathless you should be getting checked out.

On the COVID related acute illness, it looks like the new medicines are going to effectively eliminate a lot of this driving the occurrence rate below the baseline, they really can't do any more than that.

[LP]

As an aside to this discussion, the inability of Ivermectin to reduce the occurrence of any COVID symptoms to baseline level is derivative and unequivocal proof that the use of Ivermectin is complete shizen for the treatment of COVID.

Ivermectin couldn't even deliver a loose correlation that left it in with a chance!

[ElwoodBlues1]

Nobody has claimed the vaccines are perfect.

The numbers of people suffering Myocarditis and Bell's Palsy is normal, the rare occurrences associated with COVID and or vaccine are low compared to the normal occurrence rate. The case numbers have not statistically significantly increased, and it's normal for the age group between teenage and 60 to the be group primarily affected.

I suspect most cases of Bell's Palsy and Myocarditis are sudden, I don't know anyone who planned it ahead of time and made a reservation.

What has changed is that social media has given them something to blame.

I know some here are clinging desperately to the fact that the vaccines are perfect and cause no harm, but the fact of the matter is that there is anecdotal accounts of young fit and previously healthy people suddenly suffering bouts of myocarditis, and bells palsy in many walks of life.

I know one nurse who suffered Bells on her booster and is no longer allowed to work onsite even with the ATAGI exemption, and is reverting to booking patients through outpatient clinics.  I also know of a guy in his early 30's who ended up with myocarditis who was previously fit and healthy and was in the fitness industry and has a gym in his house at home.

I don't know enough about all of it to make a judgement either way, but trying to explain these things away as correlation serves no purpose.

Thing is, there is an economic reality to all of this.  The vaccine was pushed out, because someone would have had to perform a cost benefit analysis of pros and cons of getting vaccinated in gen pop, vs gen pop getting covid and requiring treatment.

That analysis will include, greater presenations in ICU, vs greater presentations in perceived side effects, vs cost of producing and implementation of vaccines vs not doing it in terms of outcomes for all at a general level.  This would not have been done using conservative numbers, but modelled on an aggressive form of the virus causing quite a lot of angst, which may or may not have come to fruition (hard to argue how it would have been here, vs 3rd world countries).

Someone in the know made those choices, and did so having to weigh up the fact that all of this isn't free and there is a bill to foot.  At some point, the percentages will be low enough to make the vaccinations the lesser of two evils.  The other being an unknown quantity to start with built on modelling.  This isnt to state that the process was corrupted, but just a plain old risk assessment using factors that may or may not have been true for all people.

Agree, the amount of young people with cardiac issues isn't normal.
Having a entire cardiac rehab group full of young people isn't normal and that's the staffs opinion not mine.
Not just myocarditis either, these are people with blood clots causing blockages.
Bells Palsy cases are 3.5 - 7 times higher after Covid vaccinations according to some studies.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanin...5/fulltext

[madbluboy]

A guy I work with was diagnosed with MS last year. Was on treatment and was doing well until...

4 weeks after his second shot he had a flare up.

Then he was doing well again until...

4 weeks after his 3rd shot he had a flare up.

His specialist has told him not to get anymore shots.