CV and mad panic behaviour

[Thryleon]

As Covid improves, we get slacker. Last Wednesday I was watching my son’s footy training with another 4 fathers in the vicinity. I was the only one masked notwithstanding the law required masking outdoors, we’d just come out of a lockdown and the signs were there we’d be going back into lockdown. And when we need to lockdown, you can always trust the antilockdown nuffies to spread it around just a little bit more.

People are tired.  Mask wearing was only going to go so far.  I hate them, everyone I know hates them, and I truly believe they are a mild prophylactic anyway and that the benefits of mask wearing is largely based in results in changes to the way people go out.  The majority dont go out because they don't want to wear a mask (whether they agree or disagree with wearing it).  It means people go out when they have to, not when they want.  Thats the benefit of mask wearing. 

Most people don't wear them properly and I've witnessed enough people not wearing them frequently enough for it to be continuing silent spreading.

My mums cousin died on Thursday.  She had made biscuits as is tradition to take to the grieving family and they bought some coffee and a bottle of brandy to take around.  She was on the fence about going so I said to her go around.  You're not going for a fun time, and you're making sure a grieving family know that someone is thinking of them.  Even if you don't go in that's enough.

People are care giving to their loved ones.  Most people need to do this.  We can't just sit around waiting for the end of this and I know first hand of more people to suffer mentally with covid so far than physically.  I do expect that equation to change in time but I think its a bit ridiculous that people can't safely see loved ones in their own houses but somehow can out in public.  That's a load of bullcrap really.

Found out about a healthcare workers partner who committed suicide 5 weeks ago.  This isn't ducks and drakes here.  People are struggling with this stuff. 

[Professer E]

Sorry to hear that.  For every single person who is undergoing serious physical,  mental or financial pain due to CoViD there seems to be a excess of denialists,  escapists or downright selfish c**ts.

I'm getting tired and frustrated of the "we're all in this together" schtickt when that's clearly rubbish and the reason we're in trouble... Until the above latter group gets in line with the minority trying to do the right thing we'll never, ever get on top of this thing - never. 

[flyboy77]

I’ve noticed you tend to project your faults on others. You regularly engage in ad hominem attacks but accuse others of using that tactic. And then you condemn taking “swipes at the man” but you do so immediately after declaring “Those fact check sites are drivel.” Hypocritical at best.

Of course, you know the fact check article we posted didn’t just say “he’s a wanker”. The fact checkers critiqued the good doctor methodically and compendiously. Just to take but 1 aspect:Fancy that: the good doctor makes a bombshell claim that mRNA trials had led to autoimmune disease but when challenged he sought to rely on a paper whose lead author says his paper didn’t support that claim. And experts in the area call Cole out for fearmongering and having no scientific basis for his claims.

And remember this is just one baseless claim amongst others that were methodically  debunked.

Well, well, well, it looks as though the good doctor is nationally recognised as a fraud.

No publications demonstrate that mRNA vaccines cause cancer or autoimmune diseases.

And therefor they're safe?

Gee, that's stellar logic. ROFL. Were you pissed when you wrote  that?

Nationally recognised? By a couple of unknown nobodies....how about discussing the content?

Cole's hardly the only one raising big questions. Robert Malone, who essentially invented the mRNA technology, is another.

Stephanie Seneff, a highly regarded biophysicist another.....

https://ijvtpr.com/index.php/IJVTPR/article/view/23

Pfizer's Japanese biodiversification study, in itself, should be ample evidence in itself to halt these vaccines  until further is known.

If you hadn't noticed, mRNA vaccines are brand, shiny new and folk who question them get ostracised, not funded for studies that will likely conclude they're bad.

ADE is the big fear. why had all earlier attempts at making vaccines for corona viruses failed?

https://doi.org/10.3389/fimmu.2021.640093

By all means bury your brains 8 feet under and refuse to consider the' 'other' side....

As Baggers so eloquently said (paraphrasing), do I really give a toss what you think?

As for your ad hominem allegation, BS.

I work with data professionally, I get data and I can interpret data.

You lot ( a good few of you sadly) just opine without any supporting evidence....it's clear LP has long got way with his bully boy "I know more than you' mantra.....well, that's kindergarten stuff.

I'll leave you with a few simple images.

Interpret them as you see fit.

ps Mav, I suggest you read up on what constitutes an ad hominem attack. Me saying a fact check site is carp is not an ad hominem attack on you. By definition.

[flyboy77]

Those vaccine passports are going to work a treat!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1423754200274677761

And kapow, fading after 6 months = NOT a vaccine. Jus a flawed gene technology.

2ND Israeli study (1st here: https://twitter.com/andrewbostom/status/...4708750341) confirms mRNA C19 vax wanes significantly within 5mos (146d), and for those 60+ yo ↑’s risk of SARSCOV2 infection by ~3-fold vs. <146d

https://medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021...1.full.pdf

[Baggers]

And therefor they're safe? 77, you're putting words/interpretations into the mouth of another. The quote that Wingman MAV shared, simply quoted that there is no evidence that xyz causes cancer. Full stop. You're manufacturing an interpretation to suit you narrative. No vaccine, no medication is 100% safe. You simply cannot think in absolutes when it comes to medications and vaccines.

If you read the sheet listing potential side-effects and risks associated with the medication I take for the management of PTSD (anxiety/depression disorders), you'd be fear struck and not touch it. But the alternative is far worse - poor quality of life and the potential for worsening mental health to the point of contemplating yourself leaving planet Earth. The plusses far, far out weigh the side-effects. I need liver function tests every 12 months to monitor the potential harmful effects of the medication - so what do I do about these potential, very real side-effects, etc? I ensure my diet includes foods that aid and support my liver function. That's taking responsibility for your own health. 22 years of liver function blood tests have revealed my liver is doing great.

If you want to focus on the things which potentially harm our bodies you need look no further than alcohol, sugar and processed foods. They do far more harm than any vaccines and many medications - a diet of these things fast tracks diabetes, heart disease, some cancers, some mental illnesses and so on.

Gee, that's stellar logic. ROFL. Were you pissed when you wrote  that? Putdowns never aid or strengthen your argument - ask yourself why you so need to do such things. In fact such putdowns only weaken your argument and succeed in divisiveness. This response and attitude will never strengthen or validate your opinion or supporting data.

By all means bury your brains 8 feet under and refuse to consider the' 'other' side.... again with the putdown... but what I do read into this sentence, and it is an assumption only, is someone wanting to be acknowledged for his contribution. Very reasonable. But whenever we do share any contribution pushback and questioning come with the territory... and it is often NOT personal, but you have an unfortunate tendency to get personal in response.

As Baggers so eloquently said (paraphrasing), do I really give a toss what you think? You used my comment to you totally out of context which is really quite manipulative. My comment to you was in relation to your expectations of me. To re-iterate, your expectations of me are of little to no interest to me.

As for your ad hominem allegation, BS. Not so. Sorry Cocko, but you do get personal. And you might want to acquaint yourself with the psychological fact/phenomenon of 'projection.'

I work with data professionally, I get data and I can interpret data. Okay, an important skill, but that does NOT assume nor is it evidentiary/proof that you are always right.

You lot ( a good few of you sadly) just opine without any supporting evidence....it's clear LP has long got way with his bully boy "I know more than you' mantra.....well, that's kindergarten stuff. I've never read anything from the Spotted One that stated he knew more than you... you simply interpreted his questioning of your data personally. Believe me, I know what it is like to be overly sensitive - again, an assumption only on my part (that you may be too sensitive to questioning).

I'll leave you with a few simple images.

Interpret them as you see fit.

ps Mav, I suggest you read up on what constitutes an ad hominem attack. Me saying a fact check site is carp is not an ad hominem attack on you. By definition. His ad hominem comment did not relate to your data or the interpretation thereof, it related to the manner in which you communicated your data.

[ElwoodBlues1]

I cant see Vaccine Passports working short or medium term, travel bubbles with safe countries like New Zealand who have low numbers of infections and tight controls I could see happening but even with 70-80% vaccine rates you just cant open up Australia to everyone from around the globe. Breakthrough infections are happening and the virus will continue to produce variants which will need modified Booster vaccines to deal with and you just cant trust who or what rocks up from another country saying they are vaccinated. I was watching the cricket from England and the dopey Poms are all crammed into together with no seat spacing, hanging around the bars all jammed in and clearly dont give a feck about social distancing.
7 day average was 23k cases a day about a week ago, They have 70% of the population with one dose and 60% with two doses......this is close to what everyone is praying for out here to open up and they are averaging 23k cases a day.
As well as Vaccinations they need to be working on treatments as well because this isnt going away anytime soon and opening up is still going to mean a lot of sick folk going by those English figures.....

[Professer E]

Yep,  vaccine passports won't work EB because the nuffies and people who are "special" will find a way to wriggle out if it.  Not enough uptake so ineffective.    Just like the age care homes where residents are refusing vaccines,  or the dumb bitch from the tower block on the news last night "lock down is against my rights,  but I'm not gonna get the jab because somebody tells me to" or my SIL,  who has been sucked into the cult of stupidity of the conspiracy theories and refuses point blank to vaccinate, wear a mask etc.

This is going to be years people.

[LP]

And therefor they're safe?

This tactic is called creating certain uncertainty, twisting the concept that nothing is perfect to then allege something that isn't perfect is therefore faulty.

Cole's hardly the only one raising big questions. Robert Malone, who essentially invented the mRNA technology, is another.

Drew Weissman invented mRNA vaccines in collaboration with Dr. Katalin Karikó, Malone wrote a paper in a related field and then later falsely claimed he was the inventor of mRNA vaccines on his personal blog. I presume that was trying to lay the grounds for a money grab from what Malone recognises as a future billion $ industry. Malone must have failed because he sure seems bitter now!

I work with data professionally, I get data and I can interpret data.

Some of us will recall you told us you were a lawyer in this very thread, just before you sprayed a heap of abuse when I exposed the dodgy facts in one of your posts. Down the rabbit hole! :o

Of course most of us stick to debating the facts unless we are highlighting a contradiction, you are the one that makes it personal as [member=122]Mav[/member] correctly points out.

You lot ( a good few of you sadly) just opine without any supporting evidence....it's clear LP has long got way with his bully boy "I know more than you' mantra.....well, that's kindergarten stuff.

ps Mav, I suggest you read up on what constitutes an ad hominem attack. Me saying a fact check site is carp is not an ad hominem attack on you. By definition.

Wowza, ........... didn't even make it to the end of the post before contradicting yourself! ;D

[Mav]

I’ve noticed you tend to project your faults on others. You regularly engage in ad hominem attacks but accuse others of using that tactic. And then you condemn taking “swipes at the man” but you do so immediately after declaring “Those fact check sites are drivel.” Hypocritical at best.

Surely, you understood that these were 2 separate (though related) criticisms of you, Flyboy. The first is that you regularly use ad hominem attacks against those who post in this thread. The other is that you regularly dismiss any expert we cite as being worthless or corrupt. Your “swipe at the man” directed at the fact checker who carefully analysed and rebutted the good doctor’s theories and also directed at all the experts cited is an example of the latter.

Interesting to see Nick Coatsworth, former deputy CMO to the Federal Government is still maintaining the rage against Victoria: Public health leaders regret failure to rebuke anti-vaxxers, ‘zero COVID’ advocates, the SMH.

Former deputy chief medical officer Nick Coatsworth, one of the government’s top advisers in the early phase of the pandemic, said authorities underestimated the influence of commentators and academics who advocated an indefinite zero-COVID strategy and denigrated the AstraZeneca vaccine – and deliberately chose not to call them out publicly.

We always took the view in government, myself included, that this was a small group of people who didn’t have that much influence, and we would create more problems for ourselves if we started questioning academic freedom or asking people to stay in their swim lane,” Dr Coatsworth told The Sun-Herald and The Sunday Age.

“I actually think that was the wrong position to take. We should have been a lot firmer. We needed stronger voices out there. If I had my time again I think I would have been as forthright as I have in the last couple of weeks, [but] six months earlier.”

Dr Coatsworth, who is now executive director of medical services at Canberra Health Services, has recently used speeches, opinion pieces and social media to speak out against an indefinite “zero-COVID” approach and warn Australians must prepare for the virus to circulate as borders open.

He had suggested reopening at a vaccination rate of 50 per cent but called for the country to unite behind the 70 and 80 per cent targets modelled by the Doherty Institute and adopted by national cabinet.

Dr Coatsworth said he regretted underestimating the influence of zero-COVID advocates in the academy, whose commentary has shaped the discourse on COVID-19 management in Australia.

“There’s a very strong network in Australian academia that is pro COVID-zero,” he said. “There’s some very influential policy people, particularly down in Victoria, who have that particular view.

Extreme zero-COVID views look good, but they can have a fair few negative consequences that are difficult to count.”

Long-serving former Health Department secretary Jane Halton – who also sat on the government’s National COVID-19 Commission Advisory Board – did not agree with Dr Coatsworth about COVID-zero advocates but admitted the public health community had failed to counter misinformation about vaccines, especially AstraZeneca, and it was possibly too late to reverse the damage.

“I think nobody really understood how really problematic information that’s been circulating on social media – unchecked and unchallenged – has been for confidence in vaccines generally, and in AstraZeneca in particular,” Dr Halton told The Sun-Herald and The Sunday Age.

“We’ve all been out advocating vaccination. But I don’t think we’ve said enough about why people shouldn’t believe a lot of what they read. We shouldn’t assume that people understand all of these issues.”

So, when Dr Nick was given a chance to lash anti-vaxxer misinformation, he lashes Victoria instead. And his threshold for opening up is when somewhere between 30% and 40% of the total population is vaccinated ...

Was this guy driving Slomo’s “We’ve got to open up and live with Covid” line or did he just fall in line? Is he now justifying his efforts or maybe trying to win preselection with the Liberals?

It seems to me that “zero Covid extremists” are a figment of his imagination. Those wanting elimination see it as a stopgap until vaccinations reach herd-immunity levels. That’s pretty much the National Covid Cabinet’s approach.

One comment to the article summed it up pretty nicely. To paraphrase, zero-Covid’s a thing because Covid 1 or Covid 300 isn’t - because of exponential growth, those numbers aren't stable. To keep new Covid cases around 300 as Gladys is doing, you still need harsh lockdowns and restrictions. 

[Mav]

I'd also like to ask Dr Nick why he singles out Victoria. In what way are the Govts (and their advisors) in SA, Qld, & WA more relaxed about living with Covid? I would have thought WA is just about the most extreme. The fact he tries to limit his attack to 1 State suggests he's following military doctrine of not opening up wars on multiple fronts. Trying to otherise 1 State is pretty shabby from a public health advocate.