9/11 Debate

[LP]

Well LP I will have to defer to your expertise on these matters. They are outside of my area so I will make no further comment.

Use this very day to day analogy.

Take a chopstick or straw and stand it vertically like a model of a column, you push straight down from one end the line of force you exert travels directly through the core to the other end. Now imagine the same model column with a significant bend or bow in it, the force you exert on the top still points towards the bottom, but the force no longer travels in a straight line between the top and the bottom, how can it there is nothing but empty space there!

The amount of bow and magnitude of force needed to deform or collapse the columns depends on the materials and rigidity, but none are infinite.

[cookie2]

[member=153]LP[/member]

Thanks, but as I said, nothing further to add.  :-X

[kruddler]

while aluminium and titanium once ignited burn at above 3200°F, both are common material components of aircraft.

Should i call you a conspiracy theorist now?

You keep stating it, even your own articles have suggested this did not happen.

[kruddler]

I'm not one to put much credence into conspiracy theories.
That's just me though.
The basic reason is that it requires so many folks to be involved in the planning and execution, and they then have to maintain a level of secrecy with few or no leaks that it just defies logic.
From an initial thought (e.g. 'Let's start a war on terror')... how do you get from that point to recruiting people of power and expertise to your cause, and the end result of crashing planes and bringing down buildings?
Somewhere along the way someone must think it's not the brightest idea and say so.

This is not an area i have put too much research into, but playing devils advocate somewhat.

Firstly, this sort of thing has been planned (and i believe executed) multiple times in the past. We know why they do it, its just a matter of how often can they pull it off.

Secondly, the secrecy part of it is relatively easy to explain. Keep people in the dark. Give people a small job, don't tell them what its for or why they are doing it and they can't 'spill the beans'. Anyone who speaks out about it automatically a crack pot.
You see how many people who believe the standard line are happy to take pot shots at others who question it and flat out to refuse to look at any evidence the other side presents.
Alternatively, my drive is to get questions answered and am looking at what has been provided too me.....and have pointed out some questionable (IMO) parts of it in the process.

Thridly, the Nazis.
Follow orders, no matter how over the top they may seem. You'd be shunned if you refused (or worse).

[Gointocarlton]

This is not an area i have put too much research into, but playing devils advocate somewhat.

Firstly, this sort of thing has been planned (and i believe executed) multiple times in the past. We know why they do it, its just a matter of how often can they pull it off.

Secondly, the secrecy part of it is relatively easy to explain. Keep people in the dark. Give people a small job, don't tell them what its for or why they are doing it and they can't 'spill the beans'. Anyone who speaks out about it automatically a crack pot.
You see how many people who believe the standard line are happy to take pot shots at others who question it and flat out to refuse to look at any evidence the other side presents.
Alternatively, my drive is to get questions answered and am looking at what has been provided too me.....and have pointed out some questionable (IMO) parts of it in the process.

Thridly, the Nazis.
Follow orders, no matter how over the top they may seem. You'd be shunned if you refused (or worse).

Re the silence bit, I reckon that happens all the time and its done to not give people ideas and then "copy cat". Its like suicide, it happens every single day (sadly) and in public places but the news services don't report it. Partly because is gruesome, partly out of respect to families and those struggling, partly because of the copy thing. I remember talking to an architect in the 90s on a building site and we were talking about how the old buildings had a large gap between the stairs in the stair wells and he went on to explain they stopped doing it as people were talking their lives by jumping down them. I was shocked to learn this and he told me I'd be even more shocked how regularly it occurred (ie daily). Not reported on or details provided.
Can also add if you're feeling down, please talk to someone, anyone.

[kruddler]

Without knowing for sure, I can't understand why a building would collapse under its own weight.

I've got no doubt it can, overall the biggest concern is how quickly it did and how easily it did.

There are a few things that bother me about the whole thing.

1. Buildings were designed to withstand a plane crashing into them.
2. Fire has NEVER bought down a skyscraper.
3. Buildings fell down extremely quickly, both in terms of time after they were hit....and once it started.

Official line....
1. Oh yeah, but that plane was slightly bigger.
2. Oh yeah, but the sprinklers were not working....and there was lots of fire.....in each of the 3 buildings.
3. Oh yeah, thats because they are heavy....and there was lots of fire.

Take that further and you see....
- The cleanup was remarkably quick with no real investigation done on the rubble.
- The media all changed their tune almost to the minute.....clearly informed of something.
- Any witness reports that had any contrary evidence were completely ignored.
- All of the passports of the hijackers had their passports found, with barely a mark of fire upon them.

Then if you start looking at the other plane crashes that occurred on 9/11....and you find that there is barely an evidence of an actual plane crash.

....and there are plenty more questions that are not answered, but raise more questions.

And i'm the conspiracy theories for seeking them

[capcom]

I wouldn't call nine months to clear the WTC site quick.  And rightly so as they were mindful of searching for all remains of the fallen.

As for the passports, how many passengers carry them on a domestic flight?  Very very few

[LP]

Should i call you a conspiracy theorist now?

You keep stating it, even your own articles have suggested this did not happen.

No they don't you've made that up!

They write about about molten metals pouring down the side of the buildings being unlikely to be pure aluminium given the yellowish colour, and that aluminium is not likely to ignite at normal building fire temperatures.

You've taken an uncertainty, and morphed it into a certainty to supporting your case, isn't that a sign of a conspiracist?

You're too heavily invested in this, you'll keep making those mistakes if you don't stick to the facts.

[kruddler]

No they don't you've made that up!

They write about about molten metals pouring down the side of the buildings being unlikely to be pure aluminium given the yellowish colour, and that aluminium is not likely to ignite at normal building fire temperatures.

You've taken an uncertainty, and morphed it into a certainty to supporting your case, isn't that a sign of a conspiracist?

You're too heavily invested in this, you'll keep making those mistakes if you don't stick to the facts.

Which is exactly what the articles said.
It COULD be this.
It COULD be that.
You've taken an uncertainty and morphed it into a certainty......

OK, it wasn't disproven, but it was suggested it was highly unlikely.
You know what else fits that bill? A controlled demolition.

Its funny how you don't see that you are doing the same thing you accuse me of.

[kruddler]

I wouldn't call nine months to clear the WTC site quick.  And rightly so as they were mindful of searching for all remains of the fallen.

As for the passports, how many passengers carry them on a domestic flight?  Very very few

Months to clear, steel was on the boat to china within days, and weeks.

I don't care about passenger passports. I'm talking about the hijackers passports. THEY were found....amongst over 200 floors of rubble, looking nice and clean with only the slightest blemishes on them.
So the fire is hot enough to deform metal to the point of collapse....but those passports....THEY are indestructable!!!