If Not BB, Who?

[LP]

When most of your mids cant hit a target or run at 65% DE, the opposition can back themselves in to get some easy turnovers....we need a simple plan to accommodate our simple skilled players which means you become predictable taking the easy defensive route which means kicking short along the boundaries and getting nowhere...ending in turnovers as your players get cornered.
We dont have enough players who can quickly with precision hit those targets across ground with long kicks and switch play...losing Docherty and Williamson hasnt helped either who are good kicks...

I agree somewhat, but I'd assert the current problem isn't Setterfield, SPS, Fisher, Poulson or any of the other kids. The problem is that our older guys don't really do much better on average and especially when things get tight during the match!

We have a list full of shell shocked individuals, damaged goods! At as any good military commander knows, shell-shock can be contagious! Yet we keep using adversity as a learning tool, it's my biggest concern! Armies did that back in the days of yore, when lives were cheap and The Best of British Military was run by men in luxury tents many miles away! But Carlton has only 45 soldiers, we cannot keep breaking them and expect to win the battle!

[Thryleon]

Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

[LP]

Hang about.  Most of our mids are under 50 gamers.

Like I said, it can be contagious.

Some are damaged from long service, others are youthful but contaminated, you do not need long service to become damaged!

Who is going to break the cycle?

We should take some delight in watching Jones and Weitering, but it can take that long to turn things around, if you can at all! I'm not sure blokes like Simmo, sMurph, Ed, Plowman, Casboult, etc., etc., can turn things around.

Simmo looks tired, and it's only Rnd 3!

[jeza]

History shows - the guys who coach through a complete bottom-out rebuild like the one we're undertaking are rarely still there when the results swing back the other way.

McCartney (3 years in the bottom 3) -> Beveridge: Won it 2 years after taking over
Northey -> Lethal: Won it within 2 years of taking over
Shaw (wooden spoon in 1999) -> Malthouse: Took over in 2000 - runner up 2002
Schwab (10th, 9th, 2nd bottom, sacked) -> Clarkson: 3 years after Clarko took over won the flag.
Eade (8th, 10th, 11th, sacked) -> Roos : won the premiership in his 2nd year.


Bomber Thompson would be an exception given their rebuild really started upon his arrival but he only survived by the slimmest of slim margins.

Hardwick: got the premiership in his 7th year so arguably saw through a fair chunk of the rebuild, however, they got in Cotchin / Rance / Reiwoldt / Martin whilst Wallis was still there so I'd argue he arrived post bottom out rebuild.

Maybe clubs just need that circuit breaker to make a clean break from that losing phase. Or maybe the intense pressure of losing cracks the coaches themselves (see Scott Watters). Or maybe the boards eventually loses patience.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

[jeza]

If he were to be sacked (which I think is a long way off) who is the next logical replacement?

Sam Mitchell?
I'd love to see Ratts back but can't see that happening.

[LP]

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

Before us no club has done to it's list what we are doing, it's unprecedented.

[BluePhantom]

History shows - the guys who coach through a complete bottom-out rebuild like the one we're undertaking are rarely still there when the results swing back the other way.

McCartney (3 years in the bottom 3) -> Beveridge: Won it 2 years after taking over
Northey -> Lethal: Won it within 2 years of taking over
Shaw (wooden spoon in 1999) -> Malthouse: Took over in 2000 - runner up 2002
Schwab (10th, 9th, 2nd bottom, sacked) -> Clarkson: 3 years after Clarko took over won the flag.
Eade (8th, 10th, 11th, sacked) -> Roos : won the premiership in his 2nd year.


Bomber Thompson would be an exception given their rebuild really started upon his arrival but he only survived by the slimmest of slim margins.

Hardwick: got the premiership in his 7th year so arguably saw through a fair chunk of the rebuild, however, they got in Cotchin / Rance / Reiwoldt / Martin whilst Wallis was still there so I'd argue he arrived post bottom out rebuild.

Maybe clubs just need that circuit breaker to make a clean break from that losing phase. Or maybe the intense pressure of losing cracks the coaches themselves (see Scott Watters). Or maybe the boards eventually loses patience.

Either way it's pretty rare for a coach to survive a full on bottom out rebuild phase like we've undertaken.

Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

[LP]

Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Not really, they already had Buddy, Roughead and Hodge when he took the job.

I think in general that term "rebuild" covers a very wide scope of activities, from "inherit" to "white-ant"! But I think the point stands, there has not been a "rebuild" like our current rebuild, ever!

I suppose the closest analogy in recent times would be the recruiting and list changes during the start up years of the Lions or Swans! To me GWS and GC do not qualify due to the concessions they received, is that fair?

[jeza]

Did Clarko rebuild the Dawks? :o

Yes but he was only really there for 2 years of bottom out part. They made finals in his second or third year I think and won the premiership in 2008. My post was about coaches who survive a lengthy bottom out rebuild phase vs. those who come in and pick up a club already several years into that rebuild which Clarko definitely did.

Having said that - as much as I hate him - Clarkson is an undeniably brilliant coach and has impacted the modern game more than any other coach. To have taken the Hawks so quickly out of that rebuild phase to premiership is his most brilliant achievement I would have thought.

It hurts so much to write that because I genuinely hate that arrogant little sniping poison dwarf.

[jeza]

Not really, they already had Buddy, Roughead and Hodge when he took the job.

I think in general that term "rebuild" covers a very wide scope of activities, from "inherit" to "white-ant"! But I think the point stands, there has not been a "rebuild" like our current rebuild, ever!

I suppose the closest analogy in recent times would be the recruiting and list changes during the start up years of the Lions or Swans! To me GWS and GC do not qualify due to the concessions they received, is that fair?

GWS would be the best analogy to our list. They had a smattering of older guys (equivalent to Murphy/Kreuzer/Simmo/Thomas) on the books but around them was a team of basically first round draft picks (if you count their 17y.o. concessions as first rounders).

Imagine GWS without the go-home factor. That is Carlton's current list.