Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

[PaulP]

Surely you are joking.
You are trying to compare those two teams?
One was favourite to win a flag, the other was favourite to win a spoon.
It is no myth, our defensive pressure under ratten was poor.

Points conceded is one of several factors that get considered when looking at team defense, but it is IMO, by far the most important factor. You can have plenty of rebounds off the HBF, plenty of intercept marks, plenty of tackles, pressure acts etc. All will mean jack s h i t if you leak goals.

Bolton has sacrificed our attacking game in order to shore up the defense. That sacrifice has occurred both in terms of recruiting and also in terms of game plan, which essentially revolves around flooding, spare man back, parking the bus etc. This mitigates against any real attacking moves, and is one reason why we get run over in final quarters - players are too stuffed playing a taxing game plan. Of course, the relative youth of some of our troops plays a part as well. I expect that as they get older and more experienced, the last quarter fade outs will hopefully cease.

The point I make is completely valid - you can't pot one coach for being poor defensively, when his record is more than comparable to that of a defense first coach.

[flyboy77]

the last quarter 'fade outs' are more a function of having to play catch up footy. And I think it's more mental than physical.....

We still have that woeful quarter (or even part of a quarter) where we concede 4-6 goals way too easily and thereafter we're behind the 8-ball.

[mateinone]

There is a fairly significant difference Paul and that is that under Ratten the issue was that once the ball was in our defensive half we seemed vulnerable. Under Bolton we have had a team such as GWS bombarding us, but they have backed their structures and held strong.

Our teams under Park and the great West Coast teams under Mick were defensive greats. If you are a team that is very hard to score against it makes sense you need to score less to win. If our team does hone their defensive skills at this time that we are (at times) seemingly under some fairly relentless pressure then it should be that as the rest of the team continues to evolve and we take greater possession and greater control of the game that we should be scored against even less.

If doesn't always work and we will get some bad blowouts along the way Richmond and Port both scored over 130 points against us and that is ugly as hell, but then we have managed to restrict GWS and Adelaide to a combined total of 160 points and gone 1/2 in those games.

Perhaps take a look back to 2015 where we had 107 points against us as an average or even 2014. In those years we were actually trying to play a defensive game plan, but getting picked apart easily.

The difference with Bolts is that he has come in with a lot of young kids and he is teaching them defensive structures that are working. If we open the game up to please fans, then we essentially  need to get rid of the coach as we are saying this doesn't work and I can't see any metric which suggests Bolton isn't working. The whole philosophy is on pressure it is on putting the team ahead of personal glory and running free ahead of the ball.

Honestly everyone needs to sit tight. We have blooded so many young players in the last 2 years and are infinitely harder to play against than we were. With that being a stated aim... then surely it means the club is on the path it set out on.

[PaulP]

MIO, I don't agree with your first paragraph, but the rest is all a-o-k to me.

I understand where Bolts is coming from - he's the man in charge, this is his way of doing things, then so be it.

My concern is where we go from here. Being hard to score against is one thing - winning games is quite another. in 2016, we were 9th for points conceded, 17th for points scored, 14th overall. At this point in season 2017, we are again 9th for points conceded, last for points scored, 16th overall. Is this stagnation, or even slightly backward movement, a necessary part of the evolutionary process, or have we missed something along the way ? Is it simply down to youth, or is there more to it ?

As I said, I'll be watching with great interest to see how it all pans out. Hopefully Bolton really smashes it.

[LP]

These past and present comparisons are fraught with danger, the game has changed so much since 2010 it's almost like watching a different sport! So, I'm not sure there is a great relevance to these comparisons.

[JonHenry]

These past and present comparisons are fraught with danger, the game has changed so much since 2010 it's almost like watching a different sport! So, I'm not sure there is a great relevance to these comparisons.

None at all, especially when comparing a top team against a bottom team.
It has zero relevance

[PaulP]

Historical comparisons give pause for thought, cut through all sorts of myth making and pointless platitudes, and help ensure that past mistakes are not repeated. How much of this site is historical comparison, of coaches, players, teams, supporters ?

One day I might retire to a sanitarium in the Pyrenees and take up bilboquet, but not today.

[thrunthrublu]

Bolton has sacrificed our attacking game in order to shore up the defense. That sacrifice has occurred both in terms of recruiting and also in terms of game plan, which essentially revolves around flooding, spare man back, parking the bus etc. This mitigates against any real attacking moves, and is one reason why we get run over in final quarters - players are too stuffed playing a taxing game plan. Of course, the relative youth of some of our troops plays a part as well. I expect that as they get older and more experienced, the last quarter fade outs will hopefully cease.

The point I make is completely valid - you can't pot one coach for being poor defensively, when his record is more than comparable to that of a defense first coach.

you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't  have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained

[kruddler]

you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't  have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained

Spinners or Spitters?
I think its the latter.

[ElwoodBlues1]

you seem to neglect available cattle to the respective coaches. Bolton coaches to the lists strengths. If He didnt play with spinners off half back, we'd be annihilated .
Like i said, to be fair. Bolton doesn't  have the talent of waite, betts and garlett at his disposal. Even only Betts in today's line up would have us entrenched in the 8. Im not worried, as i believe it will come and when it does, it will be sustained

We are 2nd last for forward entries last time I checked......Betts, Jeffy and Waite would be going cold waiting for the ball...
Our midfield is a tad overrated...