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+--- Thread: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn (/thread-6623.html)
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - PaulP - 08-11-2024
(08-11-2024, 11:12 PM)Professer E link Wrote:I watched Voss' press conference very closely. I thought his comments about various aspects of "consistency" were illuminating. Consistency of effort, application of system, concentration and availability weren't good enough before he joins the club, and still aren't. I thought it was very insightful.
I agree. I thought he was both honest and measured.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - Lods - 08-11-2024
(08-11-2024, 11:01 PM)Baggers link Wrote:If there's one thing the Dawks have demonstrated over the past couple of months is that their pressure and game style is sustained. Our history over most of this season is that we're terribly inconsistent. The extent of the Dawks winning margin can in part be attributed to our injury toll... but not the loss.
Yet they were run over by GWS in the last quarter last week so they aren't invincible. They were beatable. We were never in a position to turn things around once the injuries started to impact.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - PaulP - 08-11-2024
(08-11-2024, 10:43 PM)Micky0 link Wrote:So the questions remain:
Who is responsible for our always-injured players being retained?
Who is responsible for putting injured players back before they’re ready?
Who is responsible for the fitness of our players?
Because that’s been a complete Fail.
Or is it a matter we recruited X amount of alwsys injured players then tried to paper over the issues until it overcame us?
I understand the temptation, but I'd be wary of playing the blame game. In a complex system like a football club, there's many moving parts, and it's not easy even for those inside the four walls to disentangle the issues, let alone those of us at a distance. I understand angry supporters, much like their ancient tribal predecessors, feel satiated by the prospect of a juicy scalp, but our club has a sorry track record of taking proven performers from other clubs and dragging their name through the mud. My 2 cents.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - madbluboy - 08-11-2024
(08-11-2024, 11:28 PM)Lods link Wrote:Yet they were run over by GWS in the last quarter last week so they aren't invincible. They were beatable. We were never in a position to turn things around once the injuries started to impact.
I messaged my mate early that we needed to stick with them so we can run over them.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - shawny - 08-12-2024
(08-11-2024, 10:33 PM)Baggers link Wrote:If we're honest with ourselves, taking off the blue coloured glasses, the Dawks had our measure well before the injuries started. They had all their blokes on the same page... an entire side versus our individuals. No doubt the injuries inflated the winning margin for the Dawks but they clearly had our measure early. What Mitchell has done with a reasonable list in short time is impressive. We've been at it for years.
If we're honest with ourselves, apart from the Pussycats game (and they were out of form), we've not been consistently convincing for a very long time. If you Wikipedia 'inconsistent' you'll find an image of us.
At our best we could beat anyone, but you could say that of any of the top 10 or so sides. Our best was and is too easily quelled by opposition sides that bring serious, persistent heat - the body of evidence for this is considerable.
Leadership. Sayers and Cook seem to be doing an excellent job. All departments within the club seem to be performing well. Except the football department. Our sales, media and marketing departments seem to be delivering a sustained high level.
Leadership: Unlike some I don't see the on-field issues lying with coaching, in particular the senior coach. Is he getting the support he needs? As far as the on-field performance stuff goes, the buck stops with Brad Lloyd. Personally, I was surprised he kept his job 2 years ago when the major restructure took place. Was the Terrier a scapegoat? And let's not get started on the MC.
Great post. Fans and even the media over focus on our best performances believing that our true standard but its not and its been proven with this list since the rebuild started. Last 2 narrow wins in the finals were very good wins but could easily have gone the other way yet we hang our hat on them thinking we automatically improve this year while everyone else stand still. We needed to make important changes during the offseason and while E Hollands was a great get it wasnt enough.
We are flakey and easily coached against and rely on the brilliance of a few of our stars. We are way too slow whenever the ball gets out of congestion and opposition teams know it and we are powerless to counter it.
Need min 3 decent users with genuine leg speed, cut the dead wood and i hope we don't just think the campo boys are the answer there as they are not. We need to be ballsy and be willing to do whatever it takes at the trade table if we want to improve on this year or 2025 will mimic this year and be another fail.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - ElwoodBlues1 - 08-12-2024
(08-12-2024, 12:11 AM)shawny link Wrote:Great post. Fans and even the media over focus on our best performances believing that our true standard but its not and its been proven with this list since the rebuild started. Last 2 narrow wins in the finals were very good wins but could easily have gone the other way yet we hang our hat on them thinking we automatically improve this year while everyone else stand still. We needed to make important changes during the offseason and while E Hollands was a great get it wasnt enough.Painted ourselves into a corner with long term deals so the trade table for us is the $2 bin at the player reject shop with players like Haynes.
We are flakey and easily coached against and rely on the brilliance of a few of our stars. We are way too slow whenever the ball gets out of congestion and opposition teams know it and we are powerless to counter it.
Need min 3 decent users with genuine leg speed, cut the dead wood and i hope we don't just think the campo boys are the answer there as they are not. We need to be ballsy and be willing to do whatever it takes at the trade table if we want to improve on this year or 2025 will mimic this year and be another fail.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - LP - 08-12-2024
I've mentioned multiple times going back several months, that the tactics being used and the game style we play isn't sustainable with our list, we have heavy hitters and earth movers and we are trying to play a run and gun sprint style. It's not sustainable, and that shows in the results, we do it for a quarter, maybe a half, but we can't do it for four qtrs. Trying to push down this path will lead to exactly what we've found, fatigue and injury.
Ultimate fitness is not the problem, we frequently finish off last qtrs running over teams, that's because when they lose their legs from playing the unsustainable game style and we still have the earth movers like Walsh, Cripps, Hewett and Kennedy ploughing on.
Further more, in the absence of achieving a bye in finals, run and gun is an unsustainable game style, even if you have the list you'll almost never out run a team that has fresh legs from a week off. You need a lot of luck, low injuries, plenty of options and a damaged opponent to have a chance. It's the pot luck strategy.
It's the stupidity of going down the "obvious path" driven by the stats instead of recognising there needs to be more than one way to win. The problem isn't the list, the problem is a myopic focus on a particular game style as the only winning formula.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - Professer E - 08-12-2024
I watched us score wins against real sides in games that counted....
Lions rnd 1
GWS
Freo when up early in year
Port on own dungheap
Cheats when flying
Geelong
Dees with Petracca et al.
Don't tell me they were fluked or sneaky wins.
TdK gets taken down then the dynamic totally changes.... Can't defend, can't spread, can't win centre clearances, suddenly too slow to defend on transition.
Change a few key personnel - look how quickly the dynamic changed, there's our true fragility
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - LP - 08-12-2024
The apparent "fragility" comes from a causal relationship between the game tactics and the list management.
We are basically breaking our group, we use them like rocks throwing them at oncoming waves with little or no effect, our list should be a breakwater that waves of opponents can't break through. That is the list we've built.
The game style we need to have is not the game style we play, for it to work we can't be giving the pill back to the opposition so easily, we're shooting our own foot time and time again.
Re: AFL Rd 22 2024 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Hawthorn - shawny - 08-12-2024
(08-12-2024, 12:30 AM)Professer E link Wrote:I watched us score wins against real sides in games that counted....
Lions rnd 1
GWS
Freo when up early in year
Port on own dungheap
Cheats when flying
Geelong
Dees with Petracca et al.
Don't tell me they were fluked or sneaky wins.
TdK gets taken down then the dynamic totally changes.... Can't defend, can't spread, can't win centre clearances, suddenly too slow to defend on transition.
Change a few key personnel - look how quickly the dynamic changed, there's our true fragility
Been hearing this for the last 10 years. How many times can we blame bad luck or lack or personnel.
We lost many games when the injury list was not what it is now.
As a club we continued to persist with guys on pit list that just cant stay on the park for any sort of extended time without breaking down so it's our fault its not luck.
And then we go out last year and waste a spot on another one in the same basket.