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+--- Thread: Winning isn't everything (/thread-4293.html)
Re: Winning isn't everything - laj - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 04:12 AM)PaulP link Wrote:The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
Tell me your not comparing those sides, a couple of competitive sides that made finals to our 20% winning record in the 4th year? Richmond started down the bottom and played finals within 4 years, did it 3 years in a row, had a bad year and won a flag. Geelong were regular finalists, Collingwood were still very competitive even if they should've done better. We're 4th year in, 20% winning record, 16 wins in that time, 12 of those in the first year and a half. Won 4 from 40 and 1 from 7 this year and some think we have gone ok although we lost to the Swans, GC, and North, thrashed by the latter who were bottom.
Has there been a coach with a worse record 4th year in?
Re: Winning isn't everything - Lods - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:15 AM)PaulP link Wrote:And there it is. The Carlton way, the Demons way, the Saints way. Not the Pies, Tigers, Hawks or Cats way. And that's the difference. Not looking for an easy target, but actually looking for answers.
Maybe you're right Paul
Perhaps I am a bit entrenched in 'The Carlton Way'
It's hard to shake.
And that's probably why I'm pushing the 'we need wins' wheelbarrow.
I don't know whether we've changed.
I'm actually still not sure whether that ruthlessness is a bad thing and it's more about poor choices we've made.
I do think there is still a puppeteer or two doing their thing and that does cause me some concern for Bolton's future.
The ironic thing is we wont know for certain whether it's worked until we start to 'win' games.
So in the end wins will be the measure.
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 07:54 AM)Lods link Wrote:Maybe you're right Paul
Perhaps I am a bit entrenched in 'The Carlton Way'
It's hard to shake.
And that's probably why I'm pushing the 'we need wins' wheelbarrow.
I don't know whether we've changed.
I'm actually still not sure whether that ruthlessness is a bad thing and it's more about poor choices we've made.
I do think there is still a puppeteer or two doing their thing and that does cause me some concern for Bolton's future.
The ironic thing is we wont know for certain whether it's worked until we start to 'win' games.
So in the end wins will be the measure.
If the past coaching choices have been poor, then you sack the people making the choices, before they have a chance to stuff it up over and over. But IMO, the coaches have not been the problem - some of them may have been one of the problems (or became one), but you can't crash and burn one coach after another (including flag coaches), and then say, "oh we just made poor choices". Sorry, but simply doesn't wash in my view. Even if you believe that Pagan's success was due to Carey, what about Mick ? 4 clubs, and he only stinks it up at Carlton ?
I also don't know whether we really are new, or just pretending. But I simply see nothing good coming from sacking Bolton before the end of 2020, and I don't see how any other coach would do better under the circumstances. I am definitely of the view that if we stick with him, and if the club genuinely backs him and supports him, rather than making him feel like he's coaching for his life, then the wins and flag will come.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Thryleon - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:33 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.
Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???
You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
That's the thing eb1.
I think Bolton makes all the right noises and in general his tactics makes sense. Hes no mark neeld who after 33 matches couldn't make Melbourne competitive and he had the benefit of fledgling gws and gold coast to get 5 wins (3 off GWS, 1 gold coast his 5th win was against James hird) and Bolton has been fighting with one arm tied behind his back with respect to how dramatic our list management has been.
We need to help him perform optimally as a coach. When he had Neil Craig around we were better. Last year when we left him with minimal support we struggled, and things are trending upwards again with a more settled and better spread of talent and maturity in the team and last but not least Robert walls (speaks volumes we should have someone a little more relevant).
The metrics are trending the right way, the results aren't but evidence points to us getting better rather than not which is all we can hope for at the moment.
For the 4 in 40 brigade, why cut it off there??
Bolton's stats since the beginning of 2017, have him winning 9 matches of the last 52 matches.
Dont let the agenda get in the way of the truth though.
????
https://afltables.com/afl/stats/coaches/Brendon_Bolton.html
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 08:25 AM)PaulP link Wrote:If the past coaching choices have been poor, then you sack the people making the choices, before they have a chance to stuff it up over and over. But IMO, the coaches have not been the problem - some of them may have been one of the problems (or became one), but you can't crash and burn one coach after another (including flag coaches), and then say, "oh we just made poor choices". Sorry, but simply doesn't wash in my view. Even if you believe that Pagan's success was due to Carey, what about Mick ? 4 clubs, and he only stinks it up at Carlton ?
I also don't know whether we really are new, or just pretending. But I simply see nothing good coming from sacking Bolton before the end of 2020, and I don't see how any other coach would do better under the circumstances. I am definitely of the view that if we stick with him, and if the club genuinely backs him and supports him, rather than making him feel like he's coaching for his life, then the wins and flag will come.
Really??? You don't think Clarkson would be doing better with this group than BB? :o Wow.
Oh, and if you ask MM he'll tell you he'd have turned the place around in a couple of years.
Re: Winning isn't everything - DJC - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 08:33 AM)Baggers link Wrote:Really??? You don't think Clarkson would be doing better with this group than BB? :o Wow.
Oh, and if you ask MM he'll tell you he'd have turned the place around in a couple of years.
I don’t think Clarkson, or anyone else for that matter, could get better results with our playing group. Clarkson would probably be less willing to play the youngsters and that could possibly have got us over the line in a couple of games - not that we have senior players setting the NBs alight.
Dear old Mick has been very complimentary about our progress and hopes that we will stay the course
Re: Winning isn't everything - Professer E - 05-15-2019
It's all hypothetical but I reckon we'd have at least two more wins if Clarkson was in charge. We'd have held on against the Suns and Hawks- he would have engineered something instead of letting the train wreck unfold.
Re: Winning isn't everything - townsendcalling - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 08:57 AM)Professer E link Wrote:I reckon we'd have at least two more wins if Clarkson was in charge. We'd have held on against the Suns and Hawks- he would have engineered something instead of letting the train wreck unfold.
Last year we would have had runners going out non stop, barking instructions and setting up our inexperienced group in the last minutes of each of our 3 close matches. We are one victims of the new runners rules unfortunately.
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 08:53 AM)DJC link Wrote:I don’t think Clarkson, or anyone else for that matter, could get better results with our playing group.......
We tried the 2 time premiership coach - that didn't work. We tried the 3 time premiership coach - that didn't work. I guess the next "logical" step is a 4 time coach. After that, exhumation, and consulting with the undertaker wrt your choice of mahogany or ebony.
Re: Winning isn't everything - LP - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 08:57 AM)Professer E link Wrote:It's all hypothetical but I reckon we'd have at least two more wins if Clarkson was in charge. We'd have held on against the Suns and Hawks- he would have engineered something instead of letting the train wreck unfold.
Hard when you cannot send out a runner to the kids, Clarkson couldn't even stop us scoring until after 1/2 time!
The biggest change a change of coach would bring is a media honeymoon period for the new coach as an excuse for further loses.