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+--- Thread: Defence procurement bungles and wins (/thread-5575.html)
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - Mav - 03-13-2023
I used to know a guy who was high up in logistics for the Navy. He suggested the Collins subs did really well in joint exercises with the US Navy as they ran very silently when submerged. The Yanks had problems trying to locate them.
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - DJC - 03-13-2023
(03-13-2023, 12:30 AM)Mav link Wrote:I used to know a guy who was high up in logistics for the Navy. He suggested the Collins subs did really well in joint exercises with the US Navy as they ran very silently when submerged. The Yanks had problems trying to locate them.
Yes, that’s true and a Collins class sub managed to “kill” a USN carrier on exercise. However, the Collins class are unreliable and require more maintenance than sea time.
Astute or Virginia class subs are equally stealthy and outperform the Collins class in terms of reliability, range, speed and weaponry.
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - Baggers - 03-13-2023
Come a long way since the 'O' class subs we sailed with! I entertained the thought of becoming a submariner but way back then there was a maximum height of 5'10"... no cigar for moi. Heightism?
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - LP - 03-13-2023
(03-12-2023, 11:22 PM)DJC date Wrote:There will be commonality with reactors and, presumably, weapons and systems, so some Virginia experience should be transferable.My understanding is that they will all be using the same Rolls Royce reactors, so if true in that regard they are pretty compatible.
I wonder if there is more to the spread of solutions than just economics and good will, there might be some advantages in communications / interoperability, and there might be issues related to future technologies as well.
There were similar issues behind the JSF choice, the JSF's ability to be quickly reconfigured to suit joint operations was a much higher priority for Australia than buying the F22 and having the best superiority fighter.
You are only as good as your allies.
PS; I read somewhere the Astute class replacement is going to have some crazy endurance and reach capabilities, which seem to be ideal for Southern Ocean operations. As well as something in Submarine operations that will be akin to the JSF Loyal Wingman program.
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - DJC - 03-13-2023
Speaking about helicopters ...
Back in 2004 the Howard government decided to replace Navy Seahawks and Army Blackhawks with the NHIndustries MRH90 multi-purpose helicopters, known as Taipan in Australian service. While it may make sense for both services to use the same helicopter (although six of the RAN helicopters are navalised), the defence department argued strongly against the MRH90 and recommended more Blackhawks.
The Taipan has been a disaster with ongoing reliability problems so bad that the ADF was forced to hire commercial helicopters. On top of that, a Taipan's operating cost runs out at $48K per hour.
Despite lobbying from the French government, the Australian government has decided to ditch the MRH90s and replace them with Seahawks and Blackhawks. We're not exactly back where we started because the new helicopters are current models and quite an advance on those the MRH90s replaced.
Then there's the Eurocopter Tiger Armed Recce Helicopter. It's another example of an existing design reconfigured to meet Australian conditions and operating requirements. After considerable delays in getting the Tigers airworthy and operational, ongoing issues and the realisation that they couldn't perform the role that they were purchased for, the ADF is going to replace them with AH64E attack helicopters. An "off the shelf" purchase that will provide the ADF with a far more reliable and capable aircraft.
We don't have a huge defence budget but we do need reliable and capable defence assets. Blowing dollars on the wrong helicopters and being forced to replace them well before their anticipated service life is just p1ssing our defence budget away.
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - ElwoodBlues1 - 03-14-2023
Buying nuclear submarines is like “buying a house in Italy” as it will end up costing “at least double of what you thought it was going to cost”....30 years@ 200 Billion is the figure quoted.
"And how could anyone actually put a final figure on something that is 30 years out with a new submarine as part of it – it just doesn’t stack up".
“What we’re actually looking at is rising the level of GDP for national defence spending from two to about three per cent, or at least two and a half per cent.
“These are huge numbers and yet the Albanese government hasn’t shown any way it intends to be able to pay for this in the next three years or the next 15 years.”.. says The Australian’s National Editor Dennis Shanahan.
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - LP - 03-14-2023
(03-14-2023, 05:14 AM)ElwoodBlues1 date Wrote:“These are huge numbers and yet the Albanese government hasn’t shown any way it intends to be able to pay for this in the next three years or the next 15 years.”.. says The Australian’s National Editor Dennis Shanahan.Shanahan knows as well as anybody else that the budget figures are in today dollars, not the 2050 dollars.
As with any major purchase or infrastructure project, it seems expensive at the time, but decades later it'll seem cheap and we won't be able to work out why it didn't happen earlier.
When I was a munchkin opponents claimed the Westgate Bridge was a luxury item the state could not afford, now we are replicating it with tunnels and people are claiming the tunnels are too expensive and a bridge would be a cheaper option.
Didn't I hear something on radio the other day about a bridge across Port Phillip Heads or Westernport Heads, aka the Bay Ring Road? Somebody claimed it was too much at estimated $90B, seems cheap today! :o
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - ElwoodBlues1 - 03-14-2023
(03-14-2023, 06:05 AM)LP link Wrote:Shanahan knows as well as anybody else that the budget figures are in today dollars, not the 2050 dollars.Unfortunately I dont see China waiting 30 years to do what they want to do next ie Taiwan and building military infrastructure on the many pacific islands they will probably control. You also have to ask what we build will it still be relevant? and the question asked was where is the money coming from? I guess more taxes given Albanese has already broken an election promise and is fiddling with franking credits again and superannuation.
As with any major purchase or infrastructure project, it seems expensive at the time, but decades later it'll seem cheap and we won't be able to work out why it didn't happen earlier.
When I was a munchkin opponents claimed the Westgate Bridge was a luxury item the state could not afford, now we are replicating it with tunnels and people are claiming the tunnels are too expensive and a bridge would be a cheaper option.
Didn't I hear something on radio the other day about a bridge across Port Phillip Heads or Westernport Heads, aka the Bay Ring Road? Somebody claimed it was too much at estimated $90B, seems cheap today! :o
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - Mav - 03-14-2023
Those billionaires always seem to cop the short end of the stick, don’t they?
Re: Defence procurement bungles and wins - Baggers - 03-14-2023
(03-14-2023, 06:42 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Unfortunately I dont see China waiting 30 years to do what they want to do next ie Taiwan and building military infrastructure on the many pacific islands they will probably control. You also have to ask what we build will it still be relevant? and the question asked was where is the money coming from? I guess more taxes given Albanese has already broken an election promise and is fiddling with franking credits again and superannuation.
You can bet that with the signing of this pact that the Yanks will start subs patrolling our northern and eastern waters almost immediately... just not announced as that would be unwise. The whole package is a defense strategy... with plenty of time to change or add to our 'order.' Not difficult to imagine that a tri-nation sub base will likely be built on the east coast... Mackay, Coffs?