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+--- Thread: Winning isn't everything (/thread-4293.html)
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-15-2019
And I was responding to lods' comment that if the wins don't some soon, the club will go looking for easy targets.
Re: Winning isn't everything - cookie2 - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:28 AM)PaulP link Wrote:We'll find out soon enough - is it a real, thorough rebuild, or just a new facade over the existing structure ?
We will indeed. In the meantime, without any statements from the club to the contrary, the rebuild plan continues to unfold, but opinions outside the club continue to swirl unabated.
Re: Winning isn't everything - cookie2 - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:29 AM)PaulP link Wrote:And I was responding to lods' comment that if the wins don't some soon, the club will go looking for easy targets.
We'll see on that too I guess - just an opinion.
Re: Winning isn't everything - ElwoodBlues1 - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:07 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:Given thats the case EB1, does that mean that we need to look at a newbie team entering the competition as a point of reference?
Given the concessions afforded to them, that would mean we need additional patience to go with that.
Effectively, we are talking about GWS winning last in 2012, 2013, 16th in 2014, 11th in 2015, and then finals football.
Have done more of the Gold Coast version rebuild?
17th, 17th, 14th, 12th, 16th, 15th, 17th, 17th....
What about Freo?
It took them 8 years to play finals....
Anything predating then is a little bit difficult as a basis for comparison as the competition was too different regarding player movement (form 4's for the addition of Brisbane, West Coast and Adelaide).
Food for thought everyone:
https://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-02-15/clarko-almost-sacked-in-2010
Imagine they had lost that day. A 3 point margin is one kick. One kick resulting in a goal. To change 1 result. Had they ditched Clarkson, we would have no idea how it would pan out from that day forward, but the one thing I can determine, is that one result SHOULDNT be that important to Brendan Boltons position. Its not like we won a flag two years ago.
Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.
Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???
You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:33 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:..................
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
If the club has any professionalism, they will indeed have a framework and metrics for judging this. He could be the next anything, great or terrible. We won't know if we short change the process, and if we fail to look at the bigger picture.
Re: Winning isn't everything - laj - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 05:33 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Fair points Thry, GWS had massive concessions so they started from poll on the grid, Freo have done it the hard way, some may say on that basis that Ross Lyon is the man for the job given he got them to finals.-
Some may also say that Gold Coast had there own Brendon Bolton with Guy McKenna and that he was the wrong man for the job given their poor record.
Clarkson had linear progression and a flag after 4 years but is that the norm?....I agree that losing one game shouldnt determine Bolton's outcome but then you have to work out where the line in the sand starts, 4, 5, 6 years???
You can argue for sacking Bolton or for retaining him depending on what path you want to go down, you can make a decent case for both...Stkilda and Brisbane have engaged in decent heavy duty rebuilds like us, there isnt any real trend line to suggest a rebuild from nothing even works but like us what timeline are we marking them by?
I dont honestly know how you even set a framework to judge Bolton or the rebuild by after 4 years?....is he the next Buckley, Hardwick or the next Guy McKenna...
At 20% I have a pretty fair clue. You'd expect alot better than 4 from 40, 1 from 7. Has there been any worse at this stage of a coaching career? We've won 16 games all up, 75% of them in the first year and a half. That's damning. Don't care what side you have. Sides win that many in a year.
Re: Winning isn't everything - flyboy77 - 05-15-2019
I'd go as far to say BB won't be coaching Carlton next year unless we really turn things around THIS season - 6 or 7 wins minimum.
Re: Winning isn't everything - cookie2 - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 06:16 AM)flyboy77 link Wrote:I'd go as far to say BB won't be coaching Carlton next year unless we really turn things around THIS season - 6 or 7 wins minimum.
Could be right. Our rebuild is not the brainchild of BB. He was hired on staff to implement a part of it. If his part is not progressing as well as expected then he could well be replaced but we can't read the minds of the people running the club.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-15-2019
Not sure where to put this but this is as good a place as any...
Some observations from Lloyd, Bartel and Barrett. Liked Jimmy's thoughts...
https://www.afl.com.au/video/2019-05-15/hey-blues-let-your-kids-show-their-flair
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 04:12 AM)PaulP link Wrote:The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.
You're a funny one. What those 3 clubs were doing during those times was still win plenty of games... just not enough.
What does it matter if I or anyone, if supporting one of those clubs, would have called for a change of senior coach? Nothing. And no-one knows what would have happened had any of them changed their senior coach... might have improved, might have gone backwards, might have achieved about the same. We can speculate, but that means diddly. We just don't know, but what we do know is that they had a good base to launch from and should have been doing better - so those clubs, knowing this, each supported their senior coach in changing his MO and in some instances, some of the people around him with instant results... makes you wonder how much more successful they might have been had their senior coach changed his ways sooner? And to me that's the real message in this... expect success then when it doesn't come, look in the full-length mirror.
I think we're smart enough and not egocentric enough to simply agree to disagree. We see things differently and that doesn't reflect negatively or positively on anyone. And we each, from time to time, dare to speculate which can create some chaos. Difference is delicious. Be boring as all get-out if this forum was full of agreement!! In the end it boils down to how we disagree.