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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Thryleon - 07-03-2020

(07-03-2020, 12:01 AM)Baggers link Wrote:Have to disagree with that comment, Pauly.

Injustice perpetrated upon anyone, yellow, brown, red, white, purple... doesn't matter, it's always equally unfair and wrong. To have no interest in whites complaining about an injustice because they're white and they've a history of mistreatment is not reason to treat their hurt with any less compassion than anyone else. Actually sounds like just another form of prejudice to do so. We cannot tar the entire white race with the same brush based on the sins of the past. Important to remember that many great and heroic white peoples have fought for and alongside folks of colour, as there have been many great and heroic folks of colour and who've fought with white folks against a tyranny of injustice.

Not a good idea to be angry with all whites because of groups and individual whites who've perpetrated appalling acts upon coloured/indigenous folks. All races have done both horrible and wonderful things. And all humans -- black, white, chartreuse -- have an issue with power, just look at our history. It's because there's so many of us whities that our misdeeds gain more attention. Plenty of minorities have perpetrated abominations upon each other and whitey.

Attempting to demonise all whites because of the horrors perpetrated by some today and many in years gone by (just another prejudice) serves no useful purpose other than to create more disharmony, blame, retribution and so on. Far better to learn from the mistakes of now and the past and work together to overcome these prejudices for the benefit of all... and in many respects, many of us are now doing just that as have some very impressive folks (of all colours) in our recent and deep past.

Yes, many white folks have misused power to a disgusting and inhuman extent... but for as many of these as you'll easily find many white folks doing the right thing fighting for and with indigenous folks and folks of colour. Abraham Lincoln and his best mate, Frederick Douglass (an African American cat) together drafted anti-slavery legislation and against a racist nation had the legislation passed.

And yes, today, still, work needs be done re racism (and how to handle power) - but progress is being made, just not quick enough. It's more about acknowledging the reality of human imperfection and dealing with it through deep and widespread education, not blaming and shaming.

The racist debate is actually racist.

We perpetuate many of our ills in the name of trying to show equality.

I know of people who were overlooked for a role as a partner of a firm, because they didn't have enough female partners and therefore the quota ratios set were not going to be met.  That was discrimination based on gender. 

Now whether or not that was an excuse as to why they didn't give him the role or not, it just goes to show, how trying to perpetuate equality works against equality.

Or perhaps they were discriminating against him being Sri Lankan, because they didnt want a black man to get the job? Who knows.

In reality, I like to think that the idea is that people are not overlooked because of what they arent is more about confirmation bias, than actualy inequality but I scratch my head sometimes.  I work in IT, and the question asked whenever we hire is are their any female applicants?

Using my education as a case study, in most lectures I went to, females to male ratios were at least 20 to 1, yet most females working in IT are actually promoted faster.  That means that not only is the industry biased towards promoting females, they are also hiring them quicker.  Thats discrimination.  Its ignored, because we have to correct it apparently.  Thing is, by being sexist, we are being sexist.  That is the actual ill.  Not whom we are being sexist against.

We need to drive our motivation by standards, not make reparations for previous ills.  The term WASP exists for a reason, and applying that term to a Greek son of a migrant based on his skin colour, is more racist than I will ever be.


Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - capcom - 07-03-2020

Well said Thry.  Top marks.  Far too much entitlement

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - cookie2 - 07-03-2020

@ Thry
Well said mate.

Reminds me of George Carlin when he said "it's like f*ckin' for virginity" or similar words.

IMO greed is at the root of most of humanity's ills.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - PaulP - 07-03-2020

Stories of people's personal experiences, much like an episode of Insight, are all completely legit, and they certainly have their place, but they don't change the narrative, they don't change the bigger picture, and they don't change historical fact.

This is simply confirmation bias. People have an answer in their mind, and they go into the world looking and as soon as they find the answer that they've already concluded upon, they stop looking.

Promoting women ahead of men where all other factors are equal is indeed a type of bias, but it's a small and necessary bias to correct a much bigger pre-existing bias.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - LP - 07-03-2020

(07-03-2020, 02:24 AM)PaulP date Wrote:This is simply confirmation bias. People have an answer in their mind, and they go into the world looking and as soon as they find the answer that they've already concluded upon, they stop looking.
Social politics suggests it is unidirectional, but it isn't, never was and never will be. The concept of perception being reality works both ways and is always dependant on a human perspective because perception is by definition anthropomorphic.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - LP - 07-03-2020

(07-03-2020, 01:53 AM)Thryleon date Wrote:Using my education as a case study, in most lectures I went to, females to male ratios were at least 20 to 1, yet most females working in IT are actually promoted faster.  That means that not only is the industry biased towards promoting females, they are also hiring them quicker.  Thats discrimination.  Its ignored, because we have to correct it apparently.  Thing is, by being sexist, we are being sexist.  That is the actual ill.  Not whom we are being sexist against.
Whingers are winner Thry, and generally racism has very little to do with discrimination or deliberate bias, although I appreciate racism or sexism is often the publicly broadcast reason/excuse for explaining away a rejection. it has to be that way I suppose, or else they arrive at the conclusion they are just second rate at whatever position they tried to apply for!

In your industry it's particularly relevant, because there are 10x as many male job applicants rejected for every position, yet we do not usually here them discussing sexism! Yet we are ear-wormed by the media and feminists about equal representation. btw., I see the same in science, industry and education, ironically the education situation is apparently inverse with a shortage of males in the industry.

But we have to be careful, because terms like racism and sexism are plastic, and are frequently re-framed to suit the debate!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Lods - 07-03-2020

It’s useful to look at History because it provides a background to subsequent events.
The Australian indigenous culture is one of the oldest (if not the oldest) continuing ‘unaffected’ cultures in the world. Unaffected, that is until European settlement. Some aspects of this are that (from all evidence) tribal groups were relatively small. They were mostly nomadic. There is some evidence of permanent settlement but things like houses, strong fortified walls, castles and cities weren’t part of the landscape. As a result there were also no large armies, kings or emperors. There was no great battles involving armies of tens or hundreds of thousands of ‘soldiers’. There appears to have been no strong unifying figure who ‘united the tribes’ and built an empire as occurred in other parts of the world. No doubt there would have been tribal conflicts but that would usually have resulted in the losing side simply moving to another area. The ‘unity’ of the Indigenous Australian is a relatively modern idea but that unity has given a voice and strength to fighting for recognition of past injustices and improvements.
If we look at other areas of colonization we see a similarity. In the USA the most obvious similarity occurs not with the African Americans, whose ancestors were forcibly brought to the country, but with the native American. It’s the same with the native South Americans ‘invaded’ by the Spanish and Portuguese. Conflict, domination and particularly disease had a devastating effect on all these populations. The indigenous population of Australia dropped by about 80-90% in the first 100 years of European settlement.
A significant difference between the Australian/North American experience and colonization elsewhere in the world is that in places like Africa and India/South East Asia the colonist population never grew to the extent where they greatly outnumbered the indigenous population. As a result these countries have mostly now reverted to control by original inhabitants, albeit still with some ‘tribal’ conflict in places.
So we have a situation in Australia where for tens of thousands of years the population was pretty much unaffected by a large invader impacting greatly on their culture. Contrast that with Britain who over a period of around 1500 years were under constant threat. Romans, Vikings, Saxons, Normans all invaded and imposed changes to the native population. Even in subsequent years there was always the threat of invasion. Around the early 1800s when our young colony was finding its feet, ‘back home’ there was a threat from Napoleonic France. Communication was slow. The next ship coming into Port Jackson may have been a French warship or a ship carrying news that the ‘home country’ had fallen.
It wasn’t just a British thing. The borders of Europe were constantly shifting. It may not excuse the attitude of conquest and colonization but it does explain why these things happened (Conquer or be conquered) and it’s not just a White European thing either. Invasion, domination (and associated atrocities) were committed across the Middle and Far East. Religion played a huge part and the damage done in the name of a ‘God or Gods of choice’ is profound.
The point of all this…World history is exactly that raw. Every racial group has probably at some time experienced invasion and damage to their culture. Take the Irish for example…Racism, massacres dispossession and transported half-way around the world in great numbers.
For some nations ‘invasion’ has been a factor in the development of their own bias, hatreds and the way they operated as time went on, yet for some it’s also resulted in an enrichment, modernization and an improved way of life. For the European it’s old history but it’s history that shapes the various nationalities. For the indigenous Australian the injustices all seem relatively ‘new’ especially as they’ve found a unity and voice over the last 50 years or so and there are prejudices that still need to be fought. The important thing is we all learn from the past, acknowledge past mistakes and injustices but give greater emphasis to a future of advancement, fairness and equality of opportunity for all.


Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - LP - 07-03-2020

Yes good points Lods, but I don't weight written history over archaeology.

Archaeology might actually be exposing a lot of what is written about history as bullcrap!

I agree, we have to move forward, we all have to move forward.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - PaulP - 07-03-2020

Moving forward can only occur with a proper acknowledgment of the past, and genuine attempts to redress significant imbalances in society. You can't move forward by simply forgetting, ignoring history or sweeping things under the carpet.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Baggers - 07-03-2020

(07-03-2020, 03:58 AM)PaulP link Wrote:Moving forward can only occur with a proper acknowledgment of the past, and genuine attempts to redress significant imbalances in society. You can't move forward by simply forgetting, ignoring history or sweeping things under the carpet.

Absolutely. 'Those who ignore history are deemed to repeat it' as the saying goes. I actually see much in the world that is addressing and seeking to change the injustices and inequities of the past. And that aint easy. Humans don't like change.

We are actually living through a kind of multi-level revolution which will take generations. As it took generations for women to get the right to vote - seems extraordinary, doesn't it, that less than 100 years ago women in the US did not have the right to vote... in fact go back to circa 1790 and beyond in the US and only white, wealthy males had the right to vote as was the case in many parts of the world... so there has been significant progress, which needs to earnestly continue as horrendous injustice does still occur. Sheesh, here in Oz the White Australia Policy was only officially done away with in the early 70s!!! It's gonna take time but we're heading in the right direction though the road be rocky and often difficult and painful.