+- Carlton Supporters Club (http://new.carltonsc.com)
+-- Forum: Princes Park (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Robert Heatley Stand (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-14.html)
+--- Thread: Winning isn't everything (/thread-4293.html)
Re: Winning isn't everything - thefutureisblue - 05-14-2019
I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by anyone else's arguments today.
We won't known for sure, if the rebuild is successful, until perhaps the end of 2022.
For me, the improvement we have made this season is a positive regardless of our current W/L record.
Putting it another way, which would you prefer?
(A) Our current performance this season;
OR
(B) 4 wins by 1pt (against Syd, GC, WB, NM) and 4 loses by 100pts (Rich, PA, Haw, Coll).
I'm picking (A).
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-14-2019
(05-14-2019, 06:30 AM)thefutureisblue link Wrote:I don't think anyone is going to be convinced by anyone else's arguments today.
We won't known for sure, if the rebuild is successful, until perhaps the end of 2022.
For me, the improvement we have made this season is a positive regardless of our current W/L record.
Putting it another way, which would you prefer?
(A) Our current performance this season;
OR
(B) 4 wins by 1pt (against Syd, GC, WB, NM) and 4 loses by 100pts (Rich, PA, Haw, Coll).
I'm picking (A).
C. Though D has merrit. Stuff it, E, all of the above.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Thryleon - 05-14-2019
(05-14-2019, 03:32 AM)Baggers link Wrote:You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?
You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?
Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
One persons excuse is another person's reason.
The difference?
Perspective.
Marriage councillors taught me that one.
Re: Winning isn't everything - LP - 05-14-2019
(05-14-2019, 08:22 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:Marriage councillors taught me that one.
There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Tragic - 05-14-2019
(05-14-2019, 10:17 PM)LP link Wrote:There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
I detect a tender nerve in there somewhere
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-15-2019
(05-14-2019, 10:17 PM)LP link Wrote:There you go, you can even learn something from somebody with less morals than a lawyer, a profession that feeds itself off the misery of others.
Holy mackerel, Spotted One. You've just invalidated the best of intentions from, and dare I disagree, a very honourable and well meaning group of people. I have a few very close friends who are relationship counsellors and they're really decent folks in a really difficult -- often on a hiding to nothing -- profession.
I've been to a marriage guidance counsellor and he was a bloody ripper. Fair, smart and compassionate. Helped enormously... from the Bouverie Centre in Carlton.
Marriage / relationship guidance/counselling is no different to many other professions in that there are degrees of competence. If you're not happy with a certain counsellor, go to another one.
And... yep, there's more, a close family friend (hec, I'll name her though not wanting to embarrass her), Tammi Faraday, as a lawyer she gave up her time every week to journey to Springvale to donate her time giving legal advise to all manner of folks in trouble. Then she went to ACA (brilliant reporter). A courageous social activist. I can also give you the names of a number of champion lawyers from Freehills who give till it hurts helping folks.
Hec, Michael 'Dan' Mori, gave me enormous help in regard to certain unpleasant things that happened to me in the military and what I could do about it - social activist and deeply honourable. (He was the lawyer Lt Colonel in the Marines who represented prisoners at Guantanamo Bay and has since moved to Aust).
Re: Winning isn't everything - LP - 05-15-2019
(05-15-2019, 12:02 AM)Baggers link Wrote:Holy mackerel, Spotted One. You've just invalidated the best of intentions from, and dare I disagree, a very honourable and well meaning group of people. I have a few very close friends who are relationship counsellors and they're really decent folks in a really difficult -- often on a hiding to nothing -- profession.
I've been to a marriage guidance counsellor and he was a bloody ripper. Fair, smart and compassionate. Helped enormously... from the Bouverie Centre in Carlton.
I admit it was a gross generalization.
But it's certainly not the case that a noble profession means all practitioners are noble, in fact quite the opposite, many such professions that service the weak and vulnerable are very attractive to charlatans and predators. I'm sure the guilty are all repentant after the fact!
(05-14-2019, 11:38 PM)Tragic link Wrote:I detect a tender nerve in there somewhere
Not first hand. I've had a relative who life was ruined by some people operating under those banners, counselors recommended by lawyers. It was a scam, one referring the other in a game of cheque book ping pong until the money ran out, at which time the true lack of care or compassion was exposed!
It's beholding on those noble professionals to clean up their own industry, and it is an industry, or else put up with being tarred by the same brush! Instead they whisper amongst themselves at conferences and do nothing official to call out the cheats and charlatans! They both need a professional standards board that isn't Micky Mouse!
Re: Winning isn't everything - Shakin77 - 05-15-2019
(05-13-2019, 02:42 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
I am not sure bringing in Boekhorst and Thomas while giving up blokes that Mick didn't want is considered a rebuild. You must also consider what we gave up for those players.
2015 Draft is the start of the rebuild for mine. Picks have been used to get young elite talent. Mature age players picked up for chump change.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Thryleon - 05-15-2019
(05-14-2019, 03:32 AM)Baggers link Wrote:You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?
You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?
Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
Now that i am on a PC, I will respond with a little more depth to this.
The club is setting internal expectations on winning. The players now need to snap out of green shoot territory (which was a stance that publically needed to be taken) and into lets win today territory.
The thing is, the progress towards winning is not a one off switch into win mode and you get there automatically. It is part of the process.
Wins and losses are a result. They are not the metric. Metrics occur in games. How we perform what we are trying to do and how well we do it, and what we can then improve upon to resolve those metrics. All the wins/loss table shows us is that we have work to do still on the lifecycle of evolution of our footy club regarding how we do things (think reporting).
![[Image: demystifying-the-5-phases2.jpg]](https://d2myx53yhj7u4b.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/demystifying-the-5-phases2.jpg)
In a footy club this is a tricky process to navigate, because it all happens in varying capacities relative to the rest of the competition which is another reason why using wins and losses is a poor metric. I.e. if you are doing things better than everyone else like Carlton in the 90's that doesn't mean that there is not a better way to do things and arguably would have delivered us more success than we experienced in the 90's.
https://www.smartsheet.com/blog/demystifying-5-phases-project-management
Reporting will only be useful to understand the metrics.
I.e. we might not be tackling much as a metric in some games.
If it were the bulldogs game, the report of win, explains the metric of tackle. We were in control of the pill for longer periods than the bulldogs were, so we tackled less. Do we need to improve the performance of our team to fix that metric?? Not when a game is played like that one necessarily.
If the same was true of the North Melbourne game, it then tells us that we were not doing enough to close down our opposition.
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-15-2019
The same folks on here calling for Bolton's head, or putting him on notice, are the same who would have called for Hardwick's, Buckley's and Thompson's heads if they supported those teams :
Geelong 2000-2006 - up and down like a yo-yo
Pies - 2012 -2017 - backwards for 6 seasons, despite a fantastic midfield
Tigers - bundled out in 3 consecutive EF's (13,14,15), then 13th in 2016.
W/L are only a part of a much bigger puzzle. We need to learn from the smart, professional clubs.