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+--- Thread: Sam Newman at it again! (/thread-6284.html)
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - Lods - 09-22-2023
The problem with Newman's comments are that in a crowd of around 90,000 people tonight (and the crowd tomorrow night) you only need a few people to start booing during the 'Welcome', and then for others to take them to task and the whole thing could turn into a something really ugly.
Do we want to see a week leading up to the grand final where the headlines are all about the booing rather than the football.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - LP - 09-22-2023
(09-22-2023, 06:17 AM)Lods date Wrote:Do we want to see a week leading up to the grand final where the headlines are all about the booing rather than the football.By we, do you mean us in total, or do you mean the media?
There is little altruism in profit$
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - Lods - 09-22-2023
(09-22-2023, 06:18 AM)LP link Wrote:By we, do you mean us in total, or do you mean the media?
There is little altruism in profit$
I mean the football public in general, but 'me' in particular.
Whether folks like the 'welcome' or not, silence is still the appropriate response.
Of course, the media would dine out on an ugly spectacle.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - PaulP - 09-22-2023
(09-22-2023, 06:08 AM)LP link Wrote:[member=64]PaulP[/member] are you somehow suggesting the bars in The MCG or Marvel, and the surrounding pubs and cafes are better venues?
I suspect, those pubs and bars are more likely to elicit a response closer to Newman's provocative preference!
If you are worried about the quality of news coverage, then I'd suggest The MCG crowd is the exact wrong place to take that debate.
The ceremony is conducted when people are seated. There are clear rules in place for unruly / offensive / inappropriate behaviour at games, so it is in fact an ideal place to do it if the you want the crowds to behave. What happens in the MCG bar, in people's home etc. is another matter, and once again, not relevant.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - Micky0 - 09-22-2023
I wrote a heap out and deleted it.
Sam Newman is a fkwit and IMO if you’re thinking of booing the WTC, you’re a racist.
Not sure why it seems so hard for people to sit through, as someone said - the sponsor bullshit we have to listen to is always done respectfully ??♀️ so we’re more respectful of corporate advertising than WTC. It’s just absurd. And embarrassing.
PS. Around me on level 4 Q32 on Friday night everyone stood up and quietly listened to the WTC. No one ignored it or talked thru it. Off their own bat they stood. All ages and colours, men and women. Had a row of young guys in front of me that stood even before I did. So it does resonate and is respected by many.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - madbluboy - 09-22-2023
Why do we need to be welcomed to our own country constantly?
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - PaulP - 09-22-2023
(09-22-2023, 07:05 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:Why do we need to be welcomed to our own country constantly?
The Welcome To Country is a sign of respect. If you want to argue about the definition of "Our Own Country", that's up to you.
First Nations people were semi nomadic, and their level of movement varied according to weather, food sources and the like. As they lived predominantly outside, the land, the country, was effectively their home. If one tribe or mob moved from one place to another, they invariably needed to cross through the lands of another mob, and in much the same way as people knocking on our door at home, you welcome them into your home (or not), depending on a variety of circumstances. Inviting people into your home is essentially a welcome, and every time they visit, you welcome them again. So it is with First Nations people. So every time you visit the MCG, you are visiting Wurundjeri country. You can argue about whether the Welcome should be dealt with symbolically or literally, but that's a separate issue.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - DJC - 09-22-2023
(09-21-2023, 03:40 PM)LP link Wrote:It's even worse on the bureaucracy side of things, in some areas you get land site survey fees as part of planning permits but built into this is you guessed it, a tick off from local indigenous communities before you can even dig a hole, more $ for that in the fee than the surveyors.
Another case, a family farm has been growing trees for lumber for nearly 100 years. They want to clear some of the trees to restore pastures, now they have to get a permit to clear trees their own family planted and we're initially denied on indigenous heritage grounds. But hold a ceremony to clear the land for use it'll be OK, $11,000 is the fee they paid, the ceremony involved burning fallen timber and removing what was described as a handful of dirt. The ashes of fallen timber from their own trees, it's like a joke story you hear in a Scottish pub about how locals con tourists!
If shizen like this is really going on, then it's obligatory for it to be exposed by both sides of the debate, otherwise one side is going to risk being labelled disingenuous!
Wrong LP. I administered Victoria's Aboriginal Heritage Act 2006 from its commencement in 2007 until I retired at the end of 2012. That's not how it works.
High impact activities in areas of cultural heritage sensitivity (defined by demonstrated correlation of landforms and the presence of Aboriginal cultural heritage - occupations sites, stone artefacts, burials, rock art, etc) may require the preparation of a cultural heritage management plan. If so, the plan must be completed and approved before a statutory authority, such as a planning permit, can be granted. Cultural heritage management plans must be prepared by qualified heritage advisors, 99% of whom are non-Indigenous archaeologists. Representatives of the relevant Aboriginal group(s) may be employed to assist with the preparation of the plan but the lion's share of cost of the plan goes to the archaeologist.
Where a traditional owner body has been appointed as the Registered Aboriginal Party or RAP (that's about 75% of the State), the RAP may elect to evaluate the plan. Fees for evaluating plans are set by regulation and there is an appeal process if the RAP declines to approve the plan. In my time, only around 50% of the State had RAPs and evaluation of management plans was done by my department. Part of my role was signing off on whether cultural heritage management plans could be approved in accordance with criteria specified by regulation. Many plans could not be approved on first submission. In other words, inadequate work by some heritage advisors resulted in project delays and additional costs.
The objectives of the management plan process are to avoid harming Aboriginal cultural heritage where possible. If that's not possible, harm should be minimised or mitigated. Once the plan is approved, the development can proceed in accordance with the requirements of the plan.
One of the developers I had to deal with over a plan that could not be approved was Fraser Brown. He saw the nub of the problem immediately and, after berating his heritage advisor for wasting his time, instructed her to re-write the plan exactly as DJC (and the regulations) required.
The legislation that underpins this process is acknowledged as world's best practice.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - DJC - 09-22-2023
(09-22-2023, 07:26 AM)PaulP link Wrote:The Welcome To Country is a sign of respect. If you want to argue about the definition of "Our Own Country", that's up to you.
First Nations people were semi nomadic, and their level of movement varied according to weather, food sources and the like. As they lived predominantly outside, the land, the country, was effectively their home. If one tribe or mob moved from one place to another, they invariably needed to cross through the lands of another mob, and in much the same way as people knocking on our door at home, you welcome them into your home (or not), depending on a variety of circumstances. Inviting people into your home is essentially a welcome, and every time they visit, you welcome them again. So it is with First Nations people. So every time you visit the MCG, you are visiting Wurundjeri country. You can argue about whether the Welcome should be dealt with symbolically or literally, but that's a separate issue.
Not entirely true Paul.
Indigenous Australian society is/was based on clans claiming descent from a common ancestor as the land owning group. Several clans made up a language group (sometimes called a tribe or nation) with the same language, kinship rules, creation stories, etc. Members of the language group would move around their clan estates in a cycle that enabled exploitation of seasonally abundant resources as well as meeting neighbours for trade, ceremony and to obtain wives (men rarely left their clans to join their wife's clan).
On occasion, entire language groups would travel across other language grpups' estates for ceremonies and trade. For example, the Faithfull massacre occurred when Faithfull's men panicked at the sight of hundreds of Kulin and opened fire. Faithfull's men were swiftly overpowered and most were killed. The Kulin were travelling from around Melbourne to north of Albury for a ceremony with the local Wiradjuri people.
The Kulin would have been welcomed to the different estates or country through which they travelled. In that context, and as you say Paul, "country" is not Australia but the clan estates of the local people. So when Colin Hunter says "Wominjeka yearmann koondee biik Wurundjeri balluk", he's not welcoming folk to the country as if they've just arrived but he's making everyone welcome to the lands of his ancestors. That's particularly appropriate for the MCG as it was a highly significant gathering place for the Kulin people. In other words, he's being courteous to those who know live on his ancestors' country as well as those who are visiting.
Re: Sam Newman at it again! - PaulP - 09-22-2023
Thanks for the clarification David.