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+--- Thread: Winning isn't everything (/thread-4293.html)
Re: Winning isn't everything - kruddler - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 11:00 AM)Professer E link Wrote:Sorry, can you remind me, were there actually any winners in his multitude of "sure fire" certainties?
Nope.
Best one was Chris Judd was broken when we recruited him. Wouldn't plays at all in his first season. Which was reduced to wouldn't play at all until round 10. Obviously went on to play every game, including intra-club matches in the pre-season. Only missed about 4 games over the next 4 years and won a brownlow.
But broken and won't play.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Professer E - 05-13-2019
Put it this way, if you went out chasing chicks with Hotcox you'd have had better chances staying home with a six pack and a pizza.
Re: Winning isn't everything - spf - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 11:17 AM)Professer E link Wrote:Put it this way, if you went out chasing chicks with Hotcox you'd have had better chances staying home with a six pack and a pizza.
He was remarkably consistent in that way.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Tragic - 05-13-2019
I've said it before, and i'll say it again. The last few years have been all about development, at the expense of winning. Games were pumped into the kids, even last year, when I thought it was time to play the best team for a win, not the best team for the future. Think Dow, LOB, etc... getting games when we had mature & experienced spuds in the VFL that would have served the team better, and might have landed us an extra win or two. That accelerated development has come at a cost. The expectations for wins previously have clearly been lower, with the emphasis on development. Now the boys hardly even know what it means to win.
I see the last 3 seasons as almost purely list building and development. Now we have a list that does not have a MASSIVE talent gap under 25. Now we have a list of very talented players under 25.
The list from 2015 below tells you EXACTLY why we are where we are now. Judd does his knee and retires. Otherwise we have a handful of good players (mostly older), and the rest very, very ordinary. How the hell SOS turned that list into our current list in 3/4 years is a miracle. Again, it came at a cost. The only players with currency traded out for picks. Experience out the door, kids in the door, and gifted games.
We all agree that now is the time to win, and I believe the team is now being picked to win (regardless of what some may say). I see the start of this year as the BEGINNING of our climb. We have just reached base camp. Team continuity, and experience playing together as a stable squad is what we can now build on.
Whether BB is the right coach or not, I am certain the club must stay the course, and not panic. This has been the most brutal ground up rebuild of an AFL club I have ever seen, and it has come at a cost. The rewards are just around the corner. Stay calm, do not panic yet. We will start winning, and if BB is the right man, we will start winning this year. I will be happy with 5 wins this season. Every previous season we have finished abysmally, even worse than the start of the season if that is possible... If BB can get 4 or 5 more wins in the remainder of the season it tells me all I need to know. If he can't, then he's on thin ice. Winning isn't everything. Yet. But it will be soon.
Senior List[9]
No. State Player Age AFL Debut Recruited from Career (to end 2014) 2015 Player Statistics
Gms Gls Gms Gls B D K HB M T HO
1 Victoria (Australia) Andrew Walker 28 2004 Bendigo (U18) 179 118 12 12 6 163 106 57 48 22 1
2 South Australia Troy Menzel 20 2013 Central District 26 34 14 13 7 130 87 43 46 24 –
3 Victoria (Australia) Marc Murphy © 27 2006 Oakleigh (U18) 185 143 19 7 6 510 291 219 79 65 1
4 South Australia Bryce Gibbs (vc) 25 2007 Glenelg 177 98 10 4 5 209 112 97 21 54 7
5 Victoria (Australia) Chris Judd 31 2002 Sandringham (U18), West Coast 271 224 8 4 2 148 76 72 20 21 –
6 Victoria (Australia) Kade Simpson 30 2003 Eastern (U18) 222 121 20 3 1 460 285 175 118 42 1
7 Victoria (Australia) Dylan Buckley 21 2013 Northern (U18) 8 2 18 5 5 258 152 106 65 38 –
8 Victoria (Australia) Matthew Kreuzer 25 2008 Northern (U18) 106 56 13 9 5 166 91 75 40 55 276
9 Western Australia Patrick Cripps 19 2014 East Fremantle 3 – 20 6 13 471 158 313 64 98 39
10 Victoria (Australia) Matthew Watson 22 2011 Calder (U18) 19 6 4 4 2 32 23 9 18 8 1
11 Victoria (Australia) Robert Warnock 27 2007 Sandringham (U18), Fremantle 86 17 2 – – 18 8 10 1 3 56
12 Western Australia Blaine Boekhorst 21 2015 Swan Districts – – 11 5 9 138 76 62 24 26 –
13 Western Australia Chris Yarran 24 2009 Swan Districts 105 87 14 3 2 223 182 41 68 33 –
14 Tasmania Liam Jones 23 2010 North Hobart, Western Bulldogs 66 68 9 7 9 65 46 19 31 18 –
15 Victoria (Australia) Sam Docherty 21 2013 Gippsland (U18), Brisbane Lions 29 8 19 2 2 401 260 141 116 40 1
16 Victoria (Australia) Dillon Viojo-Rainbow 18 – Western (U18) – – – – – – – – – – –
17 New South Wales Sam Rowe (lg) 27 2013 Murray (U18), Sydney, Norwood 31 11 20 2 – 211 125 86 79 43 28
18 Victoria (Australia) Kristian Jaksch 20 2013 Oakleigh (U18), GWS 7 2 6 1 2 62 39 23 26 8 –
19 South Australia Cameron Giles 19 – Woodville-West Torrens – – – – – – – – – – –
20 Victoria (Australia) Nick Holman 19 2014 Murray (U18) 1 – 8 – – 75 31 44 15 31 –
22 Australian Capital Territory Jason Tutt 23 2011 Ainslie, Western Bulldogs 26 22 13 4 5 218 128 90 55 35 –
23 Victoria (Australia) Lachlan Henderson (lg) 26 2007 Geelong (U18), Brisbane 101 88 16 16 10 189 134 55 96 24 2
24 New South Wales Mark Whiley 22 2012 Murray (U18), GWS 12 2 8 1 2 95 46 49 17 33 19
25 Western Australia Clem Smith 18 2015 Perth – – 7 – – 55 24 31 11 9 –
26 Victoria (Australia) Jayden Foster 19 – Calder (U18) – – – – – – – – – – –
27 Western Australia Dennis Armfield 28 2008 Swan Districts 113 44 12 13 10 145 88 57 25 36 –
28 Queensland Tom Bell 23 2012 Morningside 29 19 22 17 14 465 295 170 97 87 16
31 Victoria (Australia) Matthew Dick 20 2015 Calder (U18), Sydney – – 6 – 2 70 40 30 20 12 –
32 Victoria (Australia) Nicholas Graham 20 2013 Gippsland (U18) 10 2 6 3 1 104 51 53 15 29 –
33 Victoria (Australia) Andrejs Everitt 25 2007 Dandenong (U18), Western Bulldogs, Sydney 96 45 22 31 20 334 225 109 132 30 16
35 Victoria (Australia) Ed Curnow 25 2011 Geelong (U18), Adelaide, Box Hill 66 11 22 – 3 478 216 262 75 98 –
39 Victoria (Australia) Dale Thomas 27 2006 Gippsland (U18), Collingwood 177 133 5 2 2 70 42 28 20 6 –
40 Victoria (Australia) Michael Jamison (vc) 28 2007 North Ballarat (U18, VFL) 131 2 14 – – 132 74 58 56 15 3
41 Victoria (Australia) Levi Casboult 24 2012 Dandenong (U18) 36 29 16 24 12 150 100 50 83 15 86
42 Republic of Ireland Zach Tuohy 25 2011 Laois GAA 76 25 22 9 3 414 239 175 107 24 –
43 Western Australia Simon White 26 2010 Subiaco 45 9 14 1 1 156 93 63 42 26 7
44 Victoria (Australia) Andrew Carrazzo 31 2004 Oakleigh (U18), Geelong 178 47 16 1 3 365 128 237 40 63 –
46 Western Australia David Ellard
Re: Winning isn't everything - thefutureisblue - 05-14-2019
Great post Tragic.
I decided to actually track how SOS used very limited currency on that 2015 list into what we have today.
Still on the list:
- Marc Murphy
Kade Simpson
Matthew Kreuzer
Patrick Cripps
Liam Jones
Sam Docherty
Ed Curnow
Dale Thomas
Levi Casboult
All these players are still contributing to the current team when fit.
Retired/Delisted/Gone for nothing:
- Andrew Walker
Chris Judd
Matthew Watson
Robert Warnock
Blaine Boekhorst
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow
Sam Rowe
Kristian Jaksch
Cameron Giles
Nick Holman
Jason Tutt
Mark Whiley
Clem Smith
Jayden Foster
Dennis Armfield
Dylan Buckley
Matthew Dick
Nicholas Graham
Andrejs Everitt
Michael Jamison
Simon White
Andrew Carrazzo
David Ellard
Lost some good players to retirement, and cleared a LOT of rubbish.
Probably the only one here that is still contributing at another team is Nick Holman.
Trades:
- Troy Menzel, Lachlan Henderson > Phillips, Plowman, McKay
Tom Bell > C.Curnow
Chris Yarran > Cunningham
Zach Tuohy > Polson, Marchbank, Pickett, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr
Bryce Gibbs > O'Brien, Schumacher, De Koning, McGovern
This is where it gets interesting.
I think SOS has done EXTREMELY well in converting just a few players with currency into some quality and depth coming back. The players we got where either from trading the picks we received, or using those picks in the draft.
I can't see anyone making a reasonable argument that SOS could have done any better in going from that 2015 list to now.
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-14-2019
Nice post TFIB. When it's all summarised like that, it's not a bad body of work, especially when one takes into account other factors, such as blokes like Shiel who don't want to come to us etc.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Thryleon - 05-14-2019
(05-14-2019, 02:16 AM)thefutureisblue link Wrote:Great post Tragic.
I decided to actually track how SOS used very limited currency on that 2015 list into what we have today.
Still on the list:
- Marc Murphy
Kade Simpson
Matthew Kreuzer
Patrick Cripps
Liam Jones
Sam Docherty
Ed Curnow
Dale Thomas
Levi Casboult
All these players are still contributing to the current team when fit.
Retired/Delisted/Gone for nothing:
- Andrew Walker
Chris Judd
Matthew Watson
Robert Warnock
Blaine Boekhorst
Dillon Viojo-Rainbow
Sam Rowe
Kristian Jaksch
Cameron Giles
Nick Holman
Jason Tutt
Mark Whiley
Clem Smith
Jayden Foster
Dennis Armfield
Dylan Buckley
Matthew Dick
Nicholas Graham
Andrejs Everitt
Michael Jamison
Simon White
Andrew Carrazzo
David Ellard
Lost some good players to retirement, and cleared a LOT of rubbish.
Probably the only one here that is still contributing at another team is Nick Holman.
Trades:
- Troy Menzel, Lachlan Henderson > Phillips, Plowman, McKay
Tom Bell > C.Curnow
Chris Yarran > Cunningham
Zach Tuohy > Polson, Marchbank, Pickett, Macreadie, Williamson, Kerr
Bryce Gibbs > O'Brien, Schumacher, De Koning, McGovern
This is where it gets interesting.
I think SOS has done EXTREMELY well in converting just a few players with currency into some quality and depth coming back. The players we got where either from trading the picks we received, or using those picks in the draft.
I can't see anyone making a reasonable argument that SOS could have done any better in going from that 2015 list to now.
Great points.
For extra emphasis and specifically for those people who like to quote 4 in 40, have a look at how many of this list actually have played significant footy for us since the start of 2016:
- Marc Murphy - 53 games - missed half the season in 2016, and half a season in 2018
Kade Simpson - 71 games - Probably the most consistent performer on this list, and lo and behold, one of the few that has been ever present at the ripe old age of 31+ for his last 71 games and has only missed a game or so per season.
Matthew Kreuzer - 57 games - Missed half the season in 2018 and broke down frequently when he was in.
Patrick Cripps - 66 games - Missed a chunk of 2017 with a leg break from memory.
Liam Jones - 44 games - learning a new role, was on the outer until he transformed into a full back 2 years ago.
Sam Docherty - 44 games - (food for thought, has been out with an ACL for all of 2018 and will miss most of 2019)
Ed Curnow - 63 games - missed half of last season with a fractured larynx??
Dale Thomas - 64 games - missed a few per season I think from suspension more than injury.
Levi Casboult - 58 games - enough said. Not consistent enough but our only viable key forward that has been ever present for the last 4 years
The rest of our weekly starting 22 has been either kids, or stop gaps whilst we have our draftees coming along.
For anyone who is focussed on Bolton's record, have a look at these numbers coming from the most experienced component of our list in terms of a Carlton history and then take a cursory glance at say for arguments sake, Richmond.
They boast a core group of players from before Cripps and Docherty's first game of AFL football. Let me repeat that. A core group of 13 players who are superstars of their team, from before our current best players (and captains) debut at AFL level.
For anyone who wants to complain that this is crap, really have a think about the following list of players:
Dylan Grimes
Dion Prestia
Dustin Martin
Brandon Ellis
Shaun Grigg
Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Shane Edwards
David Astbury
Bachar Houli
Alex Rance
Tom Lynch
Contrast that with our list. Process it. Look at it. Why don't we win more games?? The answer is really simple. Our senior list is actually not that senior.
Id wager if you perform that exercise with any other squad in the AFL, you will not find that level of transition from old to new that is so significant in terms of difference in experience at this level.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-14-2019
(05-14-2019, 03:11 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:Great points.
For extra emphasis and specifically for those people who like to quote 4 in 40, have a look at how many of this list actually have played significant footy for us since the start of 2016:
- Marc Murphy - 53 games - missed half the season in 2016, and half a season in 2018
Kade Simpson - 71 games - Probably the most consistent performer on this list, and lo and behold, one of the few that has been ever present at the ripe old age of 31+ for his last 71 games and has only missed a game or so per season.
Matthew Kreuzer - 57 games - Missed half the season in 2018 and broke down frequently when he was in.
Patrick Cripps - 66 games - Missed a chunk of 2017 with a leg break from memory.
Liam Jones - 44 games - learning a new role, was on the outer until he transformed into a full back 2 years ago.
Sam Docherty - 44 games - (food for thought, has been out with an ACL for all of 2018 and will miss most of 2019)
Ed Curnow - 63 games - missed half of last season with a fractured larynx??
Dale Thomas - 64 games - missed a few per season I think from suspension more than injury.
Levi Casboult - 58 games - enough said. Not consistent enough but our only viable key forward that has been ever present for the last 4 years
The rest of our weekly starting 22 has been either kids, or stop gaps whilst we have our draftees coming along.
For anyone who is focussed on Bolton's record, have a look at these numbers coming from the most experienced component of our list in terms of a Carlton history and then take a cursory glance at say for arguments sake, Richmond.
They boast a core group of players from before Cripps and Docherty's first game of AFL football. Let me repeat that. A core group of 13 players who are superstars of their team, from before our current best players (and captains) debut at AFL level.
For anyone who wants to complain that this is crap, really have a think about the following list of players:
Dylan Grimes
Dion Prestia
Dustin Martin
Brandon Ellis
Shaun Grigg
Jack Riewoldt
Trent Cotchin
Shane Edwards
David Astbury
Bachar Houli
Alex Rance
Tom Lynch
Contrast that with our list. Process it. Look at it. Why don't we win more games?? The answer is really simple. Our senior list is actually not that senior.
Id wager if you perform that exercise with any other squad in the AFL, you will not find that level of transition from old to new that is so significant in terms of difference in experience at this level.
You do realise, don't you, that young lists have won premierships, won loads of games, made finals?
You do realise that the club expects to be winning games, now. So why are you disagreeing with the goals and expectations of the club?
Are you okay with continual loses and willing to find excuses the entire time? Kinda puts you out of step with the club... for starters...
Re: Winning isn't everything - flyboy77 - 05-14-2019
Um rubbish - the 4th year group - en masse have done SFA really.
Charlie was good last year, tragically bad this year.
Weiters - the reverse of Charlie.
SOJ - finding his feet hopefully
Cuners - see SOJ (and throw in perennially injured)
Harry - some good, some bad (but overall ok)
Is that them or the Club's development of them?
SPS - one blinder then back in his box. His peers - Fish (very good overall), Setters (watch this space), Macreadie (WIP), Willo (i'm praying he's ok).
Murphy and ED Curnow have - overall - been poor this year.
Simmo and Newman - both unlucky. Hopefully the latter will be back this weekend.
ed must play as a tagger (or not at all). Murphy would be better as a dedicated small forward with cameos in the guts....i think BB finally trialled this against the Pies after 8 rounds
The Guv - hopefully starting to hit his straps too.
Pickett and Kennedy - injury riddled.
That said, Kennedy should be playing before Dow imo.
The latter has lost his mojo....
Marchy and Plow - the former back to his best last weekend thankfully. Plow still has ??? over him.
Summary - very, very few are playing anywhere near their current best, let alone near their potential.
One notable exception is PC O0 + Jones.
Re: Winning isn't everything - jeza - 05-14-2019
Some non-win related progress...
Clearances:
2017 - 18th
2018 - 15th
2019 - 3rd
Disposals:
2017 - 18
2018 - 17
2019 - 14
Marks:
2017 - 4
2018 - 16
2019 - 8
Goals:
2017 - 17
2018 - 17
2019 - 13
Rebound 50s:
2017 - 12
2018 - 15
2019 - 2
Clearances is a massive win as is the rate by which we've been able to bounce the ball back out of our backline. The system down there has actually been pretty good. Goals & disposals going up. Not massively but we're heading in the right direction.