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+--- Thread: If Not BB, Who? (/thread-4225.html)
Re: bolton - ElwoodBlues1 - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 02:15 AM)kruddler link Wrote:I think people are getting themselves worked up in a frenzy here.
At the end of this season there will be a review, for sure. You know what, i'm pretty sure every club does a review at the end of every season. It's expected.
You review the playing list every year as you need to cut/sign/trade/draft players.
You review the coaching group as its almost unheard of for 1 group to be unchanged from 1 year to the next.
You review all areas of the club.
Given we've only recently come up with our 5 year plan, you'd consider those goals and expectations were come up with based on a review of where we are, and where we want to be and what needs to happen to achieve them. You'd think that each and every year we'd review our current position to see how we are tracking with our goals.
You'd also like to think that you would review all previous reviews to work out what went right and what went wrong in your past review, to make your future reviews more accurate.
Review, review, review.
Bit of a buzzword at the moment don't you think?
We have been a loser club for so long doing things right is an accident rather than planning, we need a independent review anyway not some amateur hour biased internal review run by Judd, Brad Lloyd etc etc....
Sure you review every year but we need an in depth review, our version of a Royal Commission where every detail is looked at and where targets are set, the only reason the club wouldnt do a proper independent review is if they were scared of the results and dont want any open transparency about the operations on and off the field.
Re: If Not BB, Who? - kruddler - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 03:38 AM)Lods link Wrote:Funnily enough these are some of the reactions I expected a year ago.
It comes with the coaching territory to a large extent
The longer you go without success the greater it becomes.
Initially it's just one or two voices, then a few more join the chorus....it's only a matter of time before the 'vocal minority' becomes the 'vocal majority'
That's when it's over.
There's only one way to stop that ride down the slippery slope.
You can't sack and replace an entire list (although we've given it a good try)
Assistants ,who should bear a large part of the blame, get overlooked because the buck stops with the head coach.
Bolton's longevity is largely dependent on his alliances in the club.
Again though I'm not seeing your last sentence as correct.
Folks don't all believe everything that's wrong is Bolton's fault
I'd also expect any poll we undertook wouldn't advocate his replacement in the short term.
re bold...
Its not there yet, but its a lot closer than i'd expected based on the teams efforts this year.
Yes, you thought this would happen sooner, and i think you were the first one to have that thought that i can recall.
That doesn't mean it should happen.
That doesn't mean that the fact it is happening now makes it right
That doesn't mean that even if more people jump on board that it somehow becomes right.
Look, i think this line is what i'm most worried about.
Quote:...it's only a matter of time before the 'vocal minority' becomes the 'vocal majority'
That's when it's over.
Thats essentially what happened with Ratten sacking, you and i basically had to 'admit defeat' after the gold coast game and jumped from 'the majority' to the 'new majority'.
I don't want that to happen, because as a group, Carlton fans are far from patient. Yes, we've been more patient (in a way) now more than ever before, but that doesn't mean we are being patient enough. I think we are very much on the turning point right here and now. So much so that it could be this week. I think we'll beat the dogs. I don't think we'll fall over the line, i think we'll make a few within the AFL take note. 'Sleeping giant starts to stir'.
Alternatively, if we do get done, and by plenty, the opposite seems more likely.
Now that is my opinion based on trends/performances from us. It could go that way, or it could be a perfect storm against us with the dogs having a day out, us copping injuries and the ball bouncing in another direction - thats the beauty of football. But if its not this week, it could be next week....etc. I'm worried that we make a rash decision and bite the bullet a week, a month or even a year TOO SOON, like it appears we did with Ratten.
Re: bolton - kruddler - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 03:45 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:We have been a loser club for so long doing things right is an accident rather than planning, we need a independent review anyway not some amateur hour biased internal review run by Judd, Brad Lloyd etc etc....
Sure you review every year but we need an in depth review, our version of a Royal Commission where every detail is looked at and where targets are set, the only reason the club wouldnt do a proper independent review is if they were scared of the results and dont want any open transparency about the operations on and off the field.
Ah, not just a review, but a PROPER review. Thats the difference. :
So who does the review? Who follows up on the findings of the review? Who has ultimate say on who/what should change from the review?
You cited both the cats and hawks in terms of their 'reviews'. What you seem to be missing/ignoring is that in both cases they have had a largely stable figurehead at the club for a long period of time. Cook has been at the cats since we were last in the grand final. Kennett is now in his 2nd stint at the hawks in that time. Alternatively, we've had 5 presidents since the Elliot days, including a reluctant Kernahan who took the role through lack of other options.
..and that doesn't take into account the 'benefactors' like Mathison who have their 2 bobs worth as well.
Do you trust MLG to make the right calls under any reveiw recommendations that is put forth? Has he not been in charge over all the decisions that have been made at the club currently? Taking any alternative action would be admitting that the initial action was wrong. Doing that is not a strong suit of Carlton folk, ask big jack, collo......
Re: bolton - ElwoodBlues1 - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 04:08 AM)kruddler link Wrote:Ah, not just a review, but a PROPER review. Thats the difference. :
So who does the review? Who follows up on the findings of the review? Who has ultimate say on who/what should change from the review?
You cited both the cats and hawks in terms of their 'reviews'. What you seem to be missing/ignoring is that in both cases they have had a largely stable figurehead at the club for a long period of time. Cook has been at the cats since we were last in the grand final. Kennett is now in his 2nd stint at the hawks in that time. Alternatively, we've had 5 presidents since the Elliot days, including a reluctant Kernahan who took the role through lack of other options.
..and that doesn't take into account the 'benefactors' like Mathison who have their 2 bobs worth as well.
Do you trust MLG to make the right calls under any reveiw recommendations that is put forth? Has he not been in charge over all the decisions that have been made at the club currently? Taking any alternative action would be admitting that the initial action was wrong. Doing that is not a strong suit of Carlton folk, ask big jack, collo......
You have just indicted you dont have faith/trust in MLG, indicated you dont want Mathieson/benefactors involved, and indicated the club are not to be trusted on acting on the recommendations of a serious review.
On that basis how can you trust any type of decision making that the club make now or in the future? Surely a Independent review is the only way to go and a figure like Brian Cook wouldnt be a bad candidate to be part of or lead that review? as we both seem to agree he has credibility and experience.
Re: bolton - kruddler - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 04:25 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:You have just indicted you dont have faith/trust in MLG, indicated you dont want Mathieson/benefactors involved, and indicated the club are not to be trusted on acting on the recommendations of a serious review.
On that basis how can you trust any type of decision making that the club make now or in the future? Surely a Independent review is the only way to go and a figure like Brian Cook wouldnt be a bad candidate to be part of or lead that review? as we both seem to agree he has credibility and experience.
No, what i have said is not a personal opinion. I am asking the question of you.
Basically, those in charge believe they are doing the right thing because they are the ones that have done it.
Based on that, what makes you think that they will change tact, and go AGAINST what they believe to be true, because some 'random' tells them too?
Hey, they might swallow their pride and take it all on board and make some changes that ultimately leads to a flag or 6. But they might stay the course too and ignore any or all recommendations....and that might lead to a flag or 6 too.
So the question i ask is....
Who does the review?
Who decides whether to follow through with the recommendations of the review?
Who decides what action to take against those who initiated the plan in contrast to the reviews recommendations?
Re: If Not BB, Who? - kruddler - 04-19-2019
....and further to the above and something i've meant to post a few times now.
Could the act of going through a review actually destabilise the club?
Could fingers start to be pointed at others both prior and post review period to the point where every man is looking after themselves first and team second?
Could peoples focus be taken off the prize of making Carlton better, and go into self preservation mode instead?
Point is, as good of a concept a magical 'review' is, its not without its issues.
Re: If Not BB, Who? - laj - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 02:50 AM)kruddler link Wrote:You'd struggle to get much past 50 voters.They were hanging around the bottom with 3 wins from 36. Pies were roundabout and Richmond have been in the finals 3 years straight. Not sure the comparison is the same. For every Buckley there is 50 Mark Neelds.
Even then, would it matter if 90% of them wanted Bolton gone?
12 months ago, 90% wanted Buckley gone.
24 months ago, 90% wanted Hardwick gone.
....
Re: If Not BB, Who? - kruddler - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 04:41 AM)laj link Wrote:They were hanging around the bottom with 3 wins from 36. Pies were roundabout and Richmond have been in the finals 3 years straight. Not sure the comparison is the same. For every Buckley there is 50 Mark Neelds.
....and maybe for every Buckley there is 50 Brett Rattens?
Point is, we don't know either way.
Our list makeup (including injuries to Doc etc) suggests we should be where we are.
Our list makeup suggests we should be skyrocketing up the ladder in the not too distant future too.
Re: If Not BB, Who? - PaulP - 04-19-2019
(04-19-2019, 04:41 AM)laj link Wrote:They were hanging around the bottom with 3 wins from 36. Pies were roundabout and Richmond have been in the finals 3 years straight. Not sure the comparison is the same. For every Buckley there is 50 Mark Neelds.
And yet, both Buckley and Hardwick came close to being sacked. It's not about W/L or ladder position. It's about lack of progress, and what is required for that progress to occur. Tigers were plateauing, and the Pies were going backwards, which is why they were folks who wanted the coaches gone.
Re: If Not BB, Who? - ElwoodBlues1 - 04-19-2019
Who does the review?
Who decides whether to follow through with the recommendations of the review?
Who decides what action to take against those who initiated the plan in contrast to the reviews recommendations?
1: Independent review panel headed by a Brian Cook or similar.
2: The club/board are paying for a review, I expect the board and president to follow through and I would
have a member of the review panel attached to the board to monitor progression and the club to have regular follow ups.
3: Those who initiated the plan who were still in office after the review along with any new staff employed would initiate
the new recommendations. This isnt the Waffen SS we are conducting a review not a purge.
Could the act of going through a review actually destabilise the club?
Could fingers start to be pointed at others both prior and post review period to the point where every man is looking after themselves first and team second?
Could peoples focus be taken off the prize of making Carlton better, and go into self preservation mode instead?
(a) I would see a review as a Catalyst not destabilization ...turnarounds in a business usually require a bit of blood on the floor according to Warren Buffet
(b) Possibly....but if you are doing your job you have nothing to fear.
© We are a long way from any prize apart from a spoon, the review will determine if we are getting better and see(b)