(07-21-2021, 08:09 AM)spf link Wrote:Since you brought it up, where was the left-wing in shouting this down at the time? Plenty have walked back on their statements post that time but there were not many front and centre when it was going on.

(07-21-2021, 04:27 AM)Mav link Wrote:Literally no one identifies as an anti-vaxxer.

I flicked between radio stations on the night before the Victorian lockdown searching for news about the outbreak. I had the misfortune to land on 3AW in time to hear a talkback caller blaming vaccines for all the deaths in the UK and claiming the “inventor” of the RNA vaccines had said they were unsafe to use prior to 3 or 4 years of clinical trials. The host shut him down, saying something to the effect of, ”Surely you’re not arguing against vaccines - they’re the only way out of this pandemic”. There was a pregnant pause and then the caller said, “I’m not an anti-vaxxer - I’m pro-choice!”

Anti-vaxxers have learnt from the right-wing playbook. Never admit what you’re against: always say you’re pro something that sounds nice. Don’t say you’re against Blacks voting - say you’re in favour of measures to stop electoral fraud. Don’t say you’re against restricting gun sales to dangerous people - say you’re in favour of gun rights or the 2nd Amendment.

Unfortunately, left-wingers tend to like being controversial and provocative. For example, whoever invented the slogan “Defund the Police!” should be shot. Few if any people were proposing this. Instead the proposal was to increase the amount spent on crime prevention, for instance by addressing mental illness rather than police with little experience in that area shooting people in the grips of psychosis. But you’d have to think the slogan took off because they wanted to piss off the police.

(07-21-2021, 09:52 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:Thats one way to silence all opposing thought by discrediting the person before they have spoken.

If people don't want a vaccine their entitled to not get one.
At worst its natural selection at work, at best it will prove the vaccine effectiveness vs not getting one.
Possibly Thry, but they should pay a penalty for not doing their part for the common good; no welfare payments, no air travel, no attending public gatherings, sporting events, live music, etc.

IMHO, this is a failing of left wingers.  They paint everyone as wrong and them as right.
Isn't that what fundamentalists of most persuasions do?  It's a failing to single out any group, faction, society or population for perceived faults.

The Greeks had the right idea.  An enlightened mind will entertain an idea without accepting it and opposition thought should always be encouraged to validate your thoughts.  After all, an idea is only proven correct or incorrect if challenged.  Anything else is propaganda.
It's all well and good to encourage free-thinking, but we're not talking about ideas.  It's scientific method vs conjecture.

Quote:The practices of science

But it’s not time to forget everything we thought we knew about how scientists work, says Heidi Schweingruber. She should know. She’s the deputy director of the Board on Science Education at the National Research Council, in Washington, D.C.

In the future, she says, students and teachers will be encouraged to think not about the scientific method, but instead about “practices of science” — or the many ways in which scientists look for answers.

Schweingruber and her colleagues recently developed a new set of national guidelines that highlight the practices central to how students should learn science.

“In the past, students have largely been taught there’s one way to do science,” she says. “It’s been reduced to ‘Here are the five steps, and this is how every scientist does it.’“

But that one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t reflect how scientists in different fields actually “do” science, she says.

(07-21-2021, 10:20 AM)Mav link Wrote:So right wingers don’t paint everyone else as wrong  :-*  :-*

Here’s a tip: don’t watch FoxNews or SkyNews or listen to Alan Jones and his ilk.

The problem with your ode to libertarianism is that anti-vaxxers are pushing propaganda and misinformation rather than trying to contribute to debate. And vaccine refusal risks the health of the rest of the population. By all means, if someone wants to smoke cigarettes, let them. But if they want to smoke in restaurants or the like then there are clashing individual freedoms, the right to smoke vs. the right to avoid 2nd-hand smoke.

You argued a while back that we should let Covid rip after those that wanted a vaccine had been vaccinated. Underpinning your argument was the idea that the vaccinated would then be safe. But we’ve all been debating the significance of breakthrough infections for the last few days: they do occur, so the unvaccinated do endanger the vaccinated. And the more the unvaccinated are infected, the greater the risk that there’ll be mutations that beat the vaccine.

Just get the damn jab.

(07-21-2021, 10:54 AM)Mav link Wrote:As you noted, our arguments aren’t diametrically opposed and that was true of our earlier discussion. I have no problems with such discussions. But you’d have to admit the right wingers in the US aren’t engaged in good faith arguments. For instance, all the FoxNews hosts are vaccinated and the channel has Covid protocols. Murdoch cancelled his 80th birthday party for fear of catching Covid. And yet their hosts bash the vaccine relentlessly, disputing its efficacy and alleging various conspiracies about it. Even though Trump could have claimed credit for the vaccine program, Republicans and other right wingers are increasingly spurning the vaccine and right wingers are ecstatic about that. It seems that “owning the libs” is all that matters and they’re willing to die for that privilege.