+- Carlton Supporters Club (http://new.carltonsc.com)
+-- Forum: Princes Park (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Robert Heatley Stand (http://new.carltonsc.com/forum-14.html)
+--- Thread: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (/thread-4788.html)
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - kruddler - 05-25-2023
(05-24-2023, 09:13 PM)madbluboy link Wrote:2022/2023
TDK alone: 8 wins 6 losses and a draw
Pittonet alone: 2 wins 6 losses
TDK and Pitt: 6 wins and 3* losses
*One of those losses Pittonet was injured in the first quarter.
Stop with this crap.
Causation and correlation.
I've already shown you that's irrelevant.
Look at the opposition we play and you see the result regardless of how many ruck we play and who is #1 or not.
It's down to dumb luck that tdk plays against the shitter teams and pitto plays against the stronger teams.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - madbluboy - 05-25-2023
Facts are facts.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - madbluboy - 05-25-2023
We beat 4 top 8 teams last year with TDK.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - kruddler - 05-25-2023
(05-25-2023, 04:06 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:We beat 4 top 8 teams last year with TDK.
We got thumped bybadelaide this year when he was left on his own to ruck.
We can play this game all day.
The #1 influencing factor on if we win or lose is the strength of the opposition, not who rucks or how many we ruck.
Not if LOB is playing, or Fisher, or plowman who all have compatible records to tdk.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - madbluboy - 05-25-2023
TDK has played in 14 of our last 16 wins.
How are we better balanced with Pitt/ SOS when we have won only 2 games under Voss with that combo?
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - kruddler - 05-25-2023
(05-25-2023, 04:11 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:TDK has played in 14 of our last 16 wins.Re 14 wins.
How are we better balanced with Pitt/ SOS when we have won only 2 games under Voss with that combo?
So has LOB
Fisher has played in them all.
Cool stat, means nothing.
I've done a million breakdowns for you. Go read this thread again and if you still don't get it, ask again.
While you are at it, do yourself a favour and work out strength of opposition faced between the 2 rucks.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - LP - 05-25-2023
Let's debate the real issue here, the performance and future of SoJ in the ruck?
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - kruddler - 05-25-2023
(05-25-2023, 04:51 AM)LP link Wrote:Let's debate the real issue here, the performance and future of SoJ in the ruck?
This is YOUR interpretation of the issue, not the actual issue.
As i've said before, read what i write.
There was a post with MBB before about this very topic.
Don't play SOJ in the ruck. I don't care.
Play Young, play Harry, play Charlie, play whoever you want.
Utilise someone who has a role already in the team that we can afford to get out of for 20 minutes a game.
Point is, we don't need 2 standalone rucks that are not proficient playing other positions, thus take up a spot on the bench and hurt team balance.
My preference is for SOJ to play in the ruck, but thats not because of any great love for him, but rather because he is the one that we can easily cover for.....and he actually goes OK at it.
Harry, Charlie, Young.....FF, CHF, CHB.....kinda important roles.
SOJ - 3rd forward......clearly less important as a result.
If we play Kemp (or even McGovern) and he can cover for Young.....then Young is my tip for the ruck.
Players are but chess pieces. Move them around as required. It doesn't matter which pawn you use, they are all at your disposal and there are no favourites.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - LP - 05-25-2023
(05-25-2023, 05:46 AM)kruddler date Wrote:If we play Kemp (or even McGovern) and he can cover for Young.....then Young is my tip for the ruck.Yes Young looks to be a better ruck option than SoJ, but I can't say Young looks as willing to give it a crack as SoJ. None of them are in the same class as Pitto or TDK, which leaves us conceding the ruck almost 40% of the time!
If we have Young as a ruck option then SoJ's primary role in the team is cooked, because as a F50 marking target he's roughly equal to Cripps, Acres or Kennedy, and that is at best.
Is SoJ a better wing option than Acres?
Our match day coaching panel does not even believe SoJ is the best option, we've been using both Harry and Cripps as F50 rucks ahead of SoJ, so what role are we going to invent for SoJ to keep him in the team?
The inclusion of TDK doesn't slow down the team or reduce run if SoJ isn't there, a MC it's called selection for team balance, not picking favourites.
Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ?? - kruddler - 05-25-2023
(05-25-2023, 05:53 AM)LP link Wrote:Yes Young looks to be a better ruck option than SoJ, but I can't say Young looks as willing to give it a crack as SoJ. None of them are in the same class as Pitto or TDK, which leaves us conceding the ruck almost 40% of the time!
If we have Young as a ruck option then SoJ's primary role in the team is cooked, because as a F50 marking target he's roughly equal to Cripps, Acres or Kennedy, and that is at best.
Is SoJ a better wing option than Acres?
Our match day coaching panel does not even believe SoJ is the best option, we've been using both Harry and Cripps as F50 rucks ahead of SoJ, so what role are we going to invent for SoJ to keep him in the team?
The inclusion of TDK doesn't slow down the team or reduce run if SoJ isn't there, a MC it's called selection for team balance, not picking favourites.
They are your thoughts and opinions, but the stats doesn't back that up.
Look at the games when we play 2 rucks and look at the TOG for those 2 rucks.
Now compare that to when we play 1 ruck and compare the TOG of that ruck and whichever alternative ruck we are going with, be that SOJ, Harry or Young.
The latter 3 always play 85+ TOG....and the ruck is 80% or more as well. - So we are basically taking up about 15% + 20% TOG between our rucks on the bench - 35%
When we play 2 rucks, they are both at about 60% TOG.....with 1 basically on the bench for almost half a game. So that is 40% + 40% TOG missing, which is taken up by a ruck on the bench - 80%
The first scenario allows our bigger blokes/rucks to spend more time on ground....and has 1 less big bloke there to begin with.....so little blokes get the bench and higher rotations
The second scenario has bigger blokes/rucks taking up 1 spot on the bench for 80% of the game...and makes us bigger overall.....so less smaller blokes to choose from.....and even less rotations as well.
2nd scenario is playing 2 rucks, it puts more pressure on an already struggling midfield given them less people rotating as well as less rotations through the bench. THIS is my whole issue. Team balance is thrown out by playing 2 rucks and forcing little blokes to struggle more.
If TDK (or Pitto) could hold down a key spot.....then all this magically goes away. But neither can, which is why its an issue.
So if we can choose one of our 'other' big blokes to give us a chop out in the ruck, then we don't get handicapped by playing 2 rucks who can't do anything else. The only 'issue' with that is how much we suffer by playing a part time ruckman in those instances.
Now, as i showed, SOJ is our most effective ruckman (compared to Harry, Young, Cripps) in terms of winning hitouts to advantage....and he is only slightly behind TDK in that area. SOJ is also much better at clearances and kicking goals as well.
So THAT is why SOJ is my preference to play the 2nd ruck role. Not because of the number on his back, the name on his locker and/or birth certificate. If someone else can do the same thing. Be my guest. More than happy for them to have it. Nobody else is doing that role as well as he has. Clearly the MC have come to similar conclusions as they've been doing it for a couple years now. Perhaps your issue is with them?