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+--- Thread: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn (/thread-3915.html)
Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn - Thryleon - 07-27-2018
(07-27-2018, 10:47 PM)kruddler link Wrote:What i am saying is that right now, we are in the midst of our rebuild. Every kid is a winner right now because, we can't see otherwise.
I've pointed out that this is pretty much always the case when you are 'in the moment'. Its only with hindsight that we say 'this kid was never any good.'
I've tried to show you examples of that, which you disregard because it was not my personal opinion on them. I had no personal opinion on them because i didn't know them from a bar of soap, so i go through and see what the 'experts' thought at the time. That is, those players were not THAT bad.
So either we are incredibly unlucky and all our 'not bad' players turned out to be crap.
OR
We made them crap but not being able to develop them.
This was my original point.
People can't see how any of our players could even possibly turn out to be duds as they are all super amazing and awesome.
I'm just telling you that some will. Reality says they ALWAYS do.
That's not what I'm saying either kruddler. We have done an amazingly bad job at developing our draftees but we've had very few that made you stood up and say, gee we've found one here until now.
Yes rebuild etc, but that's not the point. I pointed to players who aren't just promising. They've arrived. They are playing good footy and doing jobs ahead of their level. I'm not reaching for a couple of draftees whom we think is talented and listing them as potential 100 gamers like David Cunningham. I'm pointing at blokes who have played almost as much footy in year one at a higher standard than Matthew Watson did in his 23 games across five years at the club, and by the time he was done we were looking for players to start building around.
Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn - kruddler - 07-28-2018
(07-27-2018, 11:07 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:That's not what I'm saying either kruddler. We have done an amazingly bad job at developing our draftees but we've had very few that made you stood up and say, gee we've found one here until now.
Yes rebuild etc, but that's not the point. I pointed to players who aren't just promising. They've arrived. They are playing good footy and doing jobs ahead of their level. I'm not reaching for a couple of draftees whom we think is talented and listing them as potential 100 gamers like David Cunningham. I'm pointing at blokes who have played almost as much footy in year one at a higher standard than Matthew Watson did in his 23 games across five years at the club, and by the time he was done we were looking for players to start building around.
...and thats fine. The majority of which were taken higher in the draft, you expect them to show more than the blokes we drafted previously.
Williamson - 4th round
Fisher - 2nd round
Dow - 1st round
Curnow - 1st round
Weitering - pick 1
sps - 1st round
Those are the blokes you listed...and where they were taken. You expect them to see more time. But not all of them will live up to the high expectations we have of them right now.
Perhaps Weitering will be found to be too slow for AFL footy? (Especially with some potential changes coming in) Not strong enough for 1-on-1 defending? Perhaps.
Maybe SPS wants to go home and can't adjust to life in the spotlight.
Willo? Perhaps he continues to struggle with his body.
As i said, plenty of reasons why talented players don't make it on the list long term. Most of which is 'unforeseen'.
Its hard to predict why a player might not make it.
Its easy to predict that some players won't.
Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn - Thryleon - 07-28-2018
(07-28-2018, 12:32 AM)kruddler link Wrote:...and thats fine. The majority of which were taken higher in the draft, you expect them to show more than the blokes we drafted previously.
Williamson - 4th round
Fisher - 2nd round
Dow - 1st round
Curnow - 1st round
Weitering - pick 1
sps - 1st round
Those are the blokes you listed...and where they were taken. You expect them to see more time. But not all of them will live up to the high expectations we have of them right now.
Perhaps Weitering will be found to be too slow for AFL footy? (Especially with some potential changes coming in) Not strong enough for 1-on-1 defending? Perhaps.
Maybe SPS wants to go home and can't adjust to life in the spotlight.
Willo? Perhaps he continues to struggle with his body.
As i said, plenty of reasons why talented players don't make it on the list long term. Most of which is 'unforeseen'.
Its hard to predict why a player might not make it.
Its easy to predict that some players won't.
I don't know why you're fixated on their draft pick number. We have had high draft picks that haven't looked as good before (Kennedy at the same stage, Russell, Lucas) and to a lesser extent McKay has some severe question marks over his ability to compete at this level and ditto Cunningham, but the blokes I've listed aren't just looking talented, they are playing good footy for their age group of draftees, and in the case of Zac fisher, paddy Dow, and Charlie Curnow are among the first names written on the team sheet every week, and would be gobbled up by every team if for some reason they hit the trade table.
I understand that the chance is there that they don't make it, I appreciate that you're pointing to previous spuds as reasons why whom we had high hopes for, but the reality is that these guys will be Andrew mccinnes stories if they don't make it. Copped a significant injury and were never the same rather than weren't capable and never looked it which is the whole underlying point of what I'm trying to say.
Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn - kruddler - 07-28-2018
You are pointing out that current players are playing good footy early on. I'm saying that is partially because they were more readymade, we are desperate for talent and injuries are helping their cause. Together with the fact that were 1st round picks and more likely to be AFL ready from day 1. Whereas in the past...the same past where we refused to fully embrace the draft, by comparison, those blokes don't hold up. Well derr.
That doesn't mean they were not highly rated, which some were.
That doesn't mean that we didn't stuff up, which we did.
Overall, i'm just pointing out that most observations done now are done through the navy glasses in terms of young talent now.
Combined with hindisght pointing out our past mistakes were so obviously bad.
Reality is that our current crop are not going to be as good as we think (right now) and some will falter.
Along with the fact our previous players were not as bad as we remember them. We should share the blame for part of the reason for their failure.
Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn - Thryleon - 07-28-2018
(07-28-2018, 05:17 AM)kruddler link Wrote:You are pointing out that current players are playing good footy early on. I'm saying that is partially because they were more readymade, we are desperate for talent and injuries are helping their cause. Together with the fact that were 1st round picks and more likely to be AFL ready from day 1. Whereas in the past...the same past where we refused to fully embrace the draft, by comparison, those blokes don't hold up. Well derr.
That doesn't mean they were not highly rated, which some were.
That doesn't mean that we didn't stuff up, which we did.
Overall, i'm just pointing out that most observations done now are done through the navy glasses in terms of young talent now.
Combined with hindisght pointing out our past mistakes were so obviously bad.
Reality is that our current crop are not going to be as good as we think (right now) and some will falter.
Along with the fact our previous players were not as bad as we remember them. We should share the blame for part of the reason for their failure.
And I'm disagreeing that your point is valid, because if Dow, Weitering, and Fisher are ready made players then every draftee is.
I'm not using navy blue glasses either. I've selected the boys that I can see have the ability to be 100-200 game players.
Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn - kruddler - 07-28-2018
Never said that. Not going to continue to repeat myself, but its all there.