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CV and mad panic behaviour - Printable Version

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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Thryleon - 06-11-2021

(06-11-2021, 01:21 AM)Mav link Wrote:As an epidemiologist said a long time ago, a stitch in time saves 9.

That argument is one that can be followed until the appropriate data is gathered and measurable.  We have much better information about COVID, the prophylactic cost, the ongoing mental health cost, and the ongoing risk profile to warrant a review of our approach to dealing with this risk.  Thats what I want done.

(06-11-2021, 01:26 AM)LP link Wrote:Because of the civil disobedience!

Personally, I think your argument is built on a disregard for the effects of lockdown, you seem to be asserting that the low cases numbers are a sign that lockdown is not needed and not an effect of lockdown. To me this is a confusion of cause and effect, the order of events matter.

No, my argument is built on the premise and factual data that shows we are ruining many lives trying to save few lives.


Thats the same argument being mounted for vaccinating against Covid too by the way.  You know the one you are advocating based on the data that we might potentially ruin few lives trying to save the many (so to speak) which means we should vaccinate. 

Dont worry about wars.  This isnt about war.

I dont need to be right, I want to challenge my own thinking here, which is why I am asking such questions on a footy forum, devoid of the emotive arguments you get from people who take this all very personally and dont add enough balance to their arguments.




Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - LP - 06-11-2021

(06-11-2021, 02:48 AM)Thryleon date Wrote:That argument is one that can be followed until the appropriate data is gathered and measurable.  We have much better information about COVID, the prophylactic cost, the ongoing mental health cost, and the ongoing risk profile to warrant a review of our approach to dealing with this risk.  Thats what I want done.

No, my argument is built on the premise and factual data that shows we are ruining many lives trying to save few lives.

Thats the same argument being mounted for vaccinating against Covid too by the way.  You know the one you are advocating based on the data that we might potentially ruin few lives trying to save the many (so to speak) which means we should vaccinate. 

Dont worry about wars.  This isnt about war.

I dont need to be right, I want to challenge my own thinking here, which is why I am asking such questions on a footy forum, devoid of the emotive arguments you get from people who take this all very personally and dont add enough balance to their arguments.
Firstly, vaccines save lives they do not cost them, as mentioned earlier if the data is followed on deaths after vaccination is shows that the broad trend is that deaths from clots are reduced. The problem is social media and media bend the category, they ignore the general trend and want to discuss a very specific subset cherrypicked for the purpose which they want portrayed as the norm.

I'm not sure what ruining a life means in the pandemic lockdown perspective, much of the pain and suffering is a consequence of civil disobedience  against the lockdown rather than the mechanics of the pandemic lockdown itself. While I concede the lockdown civil disobedience doesn't exist without the lockdown, I can't say that low case numbers would persist in the absence of lockdown.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - PaulP - 06-11-2021

I would personally prefer governments and people to be more cautious than less in situations like this. There will be negative outcomes and criticisms no matter what policies the government has in place.

If we followed a more sensible model rather than the rubbish American capitalist system, we would have planned and budgeted for such an event long ago (scientists has stated for decades that such an event was beyond any shadow of a doubt, a matter of when, not if). That way, we could have had proper restrictions and financial / mental health etc. support for the citizens, and the impacts on society would be less. We've had the double whammy of a financial meltdown and a pandemic, and the great majority of people will be struggling for a long time IMO.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - madbluboy - 06-11-2021

(06-10-2021, 03:06 PM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Why did they stop Astraz for u50's?

It killed a few young healthy people. If they only give it to over 50s then if you die they can use your age against you.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - ElwoodBlues1 - 06-11-2021

(06-11-2021, 03:32 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:It killed a few young healthy people. If they only give it to over 50s then if you die they can use your age against you.
The four latest patients with Blood Clots from AstraZ are all over 50...i guess underlying causes will be the excuse given.
Just heard a younger man over in Greece had the AstraZ and was next found dead next day...perfectly healthy up until then.



Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Thryleon - 06-11-2021

(06-11-2021, 02:59 AM)LP link Wrote:Firstly, vaccines save lives they do not cost them, as mentioned earlier if the data is followed on deaths after vaccination is shows that the broad trend is that deaths from clots are reduced. The problem is social media and media bend the category, they ignore the general trend and want to discuss a very specific subset cherrypicked for the purpose which they want portrayed as the norm.

The data shows that the vaccine has indeed been linked with death you seem to ignore this and want to explain it away.  Why?

Quote:I'm not sure what ruining a life means in the pandemic lockdown perspective, much of the pain and suffering is a consequence of civil disobedience  against the lockdown rather than the mechanics of the pandemic lockdown itself. While I concede the lockdown civil disobedience doesn't exist without the lockdown, I can't say that low case numbers would persist in the absence of lockdown.

Surely even you are a bit more worldly to see the effects of lock down on people?

People are actually suffering LP.  Some of them are being denied medical treatment because COVID (cancellation of all non life threatening elective surgery isn't exactly leaving people in a situation where they are happy and healthy.

Some people are struggling to put food on the table.  Some people have lost their careers let alone their jobs.

Businesses (particularly small ones) have gone under.

That leaves people feeling a lot of angst.

The few people I know who had covid, and had extended symptoms are now 100% fine.

No ongoing issues, nothing.

People are going through grief, alone.
People are having weddings with no guests.
People are having kids, and their fathers are not being allowed to spend more than an hour a day with them for the first days of their life.
People are being admitted to hospital near death and being denied access by their family.  That grief of not being able to say goodbye (covid or not) is no easier.
People are dying of terminal illnesses during this period, having spent their last few months doing nothing.  They are already dead, they are just waiting for the finality of death because life in lockdown isnt exactly living, unless you have a steady income stream, a cushy job where you can work remotely, or an essential service.

Then you have the inability to see people.  Widows and widowers have a bubble mate, but they aren't exactly living their best life.

Its very myopic to think that this is all easy enough  with no consequences.

Not everyone has a nice home to lock down in.  They might live in a share house, or live in a really unfriendly suburb.

Foodbanks have never had less food and people to work for them feeding the poor and the homeless.

I am bamboozled by your response and the lack of empathy it shows. 


Its quite absurd. 


Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Mav - 06-11-2021

So, to sum up: vaccines are dangerous and aren’t the answer but we shouldn’t have lockdowns or restrictions either. Just let it rip because people will be 100% after a while.

Operating businesses is a risk/reward scenario. If you’re unlucky enough to be starting out when a depression hits, you may lose your business. If you’ve started up a burger joint and a Maccas opens up across the road, good luck. In either case, you’re not going to get much of a chop out from government.

I wonder what country people think when owners of regional tourist venues demand that the government let Melburnians travel freely to their towns so their businesses will prosper. I wonder if any residents would prefer to see the infected stay where they are.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - LP - 06-11-2021

(06-11-2021, 05:24 AM)Mav date Wrote:I wonder what country people think when owners of regional tourist venues demand that the government let Melburnians travel freely to their towns so their businesses will prosper. I wonder if any residents would prefer to see the infected stay where they are.
[member=122]Mav[/member]‍ I was thinking on this very issue last night when watching the reaction to the Qld absconders.

Just a week ago we had regional tourism operators demanding Melbournians be set free, when that couple escaped and turned positive without blinking many of the same were asking for them to be jailed!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - LP - 06-11-2021

(06-11-2021, 05:08 AM)Thryleon date Wrote:I am bamboozled by your response and the lack of empathy it shows.
And they'll live to tell the tale to their descendants, like so many of their ancestors who survived a war!

I have to wonder if those lonely and isolated might also be some of the most likely to suffer at the hands of Sars-CoV-2, disease tends to work that way.

Much of the commentary surrounding the pain of lockdown is a commentary about human nature, and not directly the effects of lockdown. I will continue to assert, if the dissenters went away, the lockdown would be swifter and more effective, and we might not be in the 3rd or 4th iteration. We do not have far to go to test this, interstate or Auckland will suffice.

I'll give you a nice example.
A small little local discrete private gym, frequented and subscribed to by a fairly affluent set. Many of these people are doctors, medical specialists, politicians, accountants, lawyers, well to dos, many merely inconvenienced by the lockdown. They go here because it's discrete, only a couple of hundred members and they won't run into people they do not want to talk to. For some their income is not diminished, for some they are even turning more profit not operating a mainstream office. But they can't go to gym so they cancel the $6 to $10/week memberships heaping duress on the little gym operator. If the gym survives, when things return to normal, patrons will have to sit in their and listen to them bragging about their favourite under $500 Burgundy, or their next holiday to a private French run Fiji resort, or how servicing costs of the Astin Martin have gone through the roof, if the gym survives. They have the power to maintain the quality of life and financial status of that gym operator, but instead they opt to save their pittance per week and suspend or cancel their memberships, what's in it for them after all they aren't getting their $6 worth! Of course if the gym operator doesn't survive the pandemic, they'll be sprouting soliloquys of such shame and pity, how harsh life can be!                Such is human nature!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour - Mav - 06-11-2021

The one that amazed me was when a farmers’ representative was advocating a few months back that the Victorian Government should allow hundreds (or was it thousands?) of people in from overseas to pick fruit and the like. When the journo noted the government’s position was that only a small number of people could be processed through hotel quarantine and that included returned travellers, he helpfully suggested we could get them to quarantine in other countries so they could be waved through on arrival. I can just imagine if Scotty from Marketing’s National Party mates had rammed that one down our throats, the Fed Govt would be blaming the States for mishandling the influx.