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+--- Thread: Formula 1 (/thread-458.html)
Re: Formula 1 - kruddler - 03-22-2016
(03-22-2016, 12:30 AM)LP link Wrote:I don't mind the quiet cars and technology as long as there is racing. The "formula" part of F1 barely exists anymore, contrast racing in F1 with racing in other categories there is no comparison. Even Hamilton was recently quoted as stating F1 is boring.
Senna had the right idea years ago, remove most of the technology and leave it up to driver skills, then you get racing. Soon they will be able to replace the F1 drivers with robots and you will barely notice a difference!
In any case F1 is no longer the regime for the worlds best drivers, because you only get a drive if you can bring $50M~$100M to the team plus sponsors.
I recall at Bathhurst there was a drive off between Button and Lowndes, a modified F1 car and a touring car with drivers swapping. After a few laps Lowndes was within 0.3s of Button, after just as many laps in the touring car Button was still 7s adrift of Lowndes time. It was very diplomatically reported!
Reminds me of when some celebs on Top Gear almost match times with F1 drivers, hard to believe but it happens.
OK, last line first. They never compete in the same cars, so not sure where you have drawn that comparison.
Button vs Lowndes...
Was unaware of that ever happening, but i reckon that says more about the bathurst track than anything else.
Put the same cars at Monaco and Lowndes wouldn't be able to finish a lap in the F1 car.
re Senna...
Courtesy of his death, there was a real shift to make the sport safer....and it worked.
Up until last year with the delayed death of Jules Bianchi, nobody had died since Senna in an unparalled improvement in the sport.
Re: Formula 1 - LP - 03-22-2016
(03-22-2016, 08:56 AM)kruddler link Wrote:OK, last line first. They never compete in the same cars, so not sure where you have drawn that comparison.
Button vs Lowndes...
Was unaware of that ever happening, but i reckon that says more about the bathurst track than anything else.
Put the same cars at Monaco and Lowndes wouldn't be able to finish a lap in the F1 car.
re Senna...
Courtesy of his death, there was a real shift to make the sport safer....and it worked.
Up until last year with the delayed death of Jules Bianchi, nobody had died since Senna in an unparalled improvement in the sport.
It's fair enough, I was sure the F1 Car from Top Gear in one year was used by Celebs in another.
It's wishful thinking about Lowndes and drivers of his ilk not being able to lap Monarco.
I'm not saying remove the safety features, but the stuff that automates normal driver functions.
Re: Formula 1 - kruddler - 03-23-2016
(03-22-2016, 09:22 AM)LP link Wrote:It's wishful thinking about Lowndes and drivers of his ilk not being able to lap Monarco.
Lowndes can lap monaco, but i'm telling you the difference in gap between the cars will be very much different to what the bathurst ones were.
Chances are Lowndes has at least driven Monaco on a computer game. I know i've done 1000's of laps around there.
Has Button ever seen Bathurst before?
Re: Formula 1 - LP - 03-23-2016
(03-23-2016, 08:44 AM)kruddler link Wrote:Has Button ever seen Bathurst before?
It doesn't explain 7 seconds, especially after both drivers had practice sessions..
FYI, Lowndes actually offered the same excuse for Button to the media, but behind the scenes sentiment was very different. I know this because I have business associates who drive, engineer and manage one of the major domestic teams. Two of them spent almost a decade in F1 as part of a race crew. One was a chief engineer and the other a pit manager. As much as I appreciate your simulator experience I think I'll trust their opinion.
Re: Formula 1 - kruddler - 03-23-2016
(03-23-2016, 03:47 PM)LP link Wrote:It doesn't explain 7 seconds, especially after both drivers had practice sessions..
FYI, Lowndes actually offered the same excuse for Button to the media, but behind the scenes sentiment was very different. I know this because I have business associates who drive, engineer and manage one of the major domestic teams. Two of them spent almost a decade in F1 as part of a race crew. One was a chief engineer and the other a pit manager. As much as I appreciate your simulator experience I think I'll trust their opinion.
It doesn't explain 7 seconds? BS.
You mentioned Top gear in an earlier post.
Go back and watch the episode involving the nurburgring (well, one of a couple).
How much time does everyone shave off their times after their first times around there?
Once you get to know the track, time starts falling off.
Lowndes, if he is like most aussie drivers, has grown up watching bathurst his whole life and knows every inch of the track. You don't think thats worth 7 seconds compared to someone who has never even seen it? Keep in mind there is very little runoff areas to help you if something goes wrong.
BTW, Buttons driving style is somewhat conservative, easy on the tyres. Not used to throwing cars around like the V8 drivers
Re: Formula 1 - LP - 03-24-2016
(03-23-2016, 09:55 PM)kruddler link Wrote:It doesn't explain 7 seconds? BS.
You mentioned Top gear in an earlier post.
Go back and watch the episode involving the nurburgring (well, one of a couple).
How much time does everyone shave off their times after their first times around there?
Once you get to know the track, time starts falling off.
Lowndes, if he is like most aussie drivers, has grown up watching bathurst his whole life and knows every inch of the track. You don't think thats worth 7 seconds compared to someone who has never even seen it? Keep in mind there is very little runoff areas to help you if something goes wrong.
BTW, Buttons driving style is somewhat conservative, easy on the tyres. Not used to throwing cars around like the V8 drivers
Lets examine your claim.
Firstly you haven't explained why Lowndes and Button posted similar times in the F1 car(0.3s), but vastly different times in the V8(7s). Button is alleged to have got out of the V8 and said that the car was not drivable(I believe he said it was "A Pig", even under the light fuel loads they were using!)
Which sector did Button lose most of the 7 seconds, surely you are not claiming he lost it evenly across the track! If so where then?
I am not an expert and have never driven the course either in a car or on a game console. But even if you are a touring car champion in disguise I would then have to ask how your opinions can differ so greatly from my associate who is a Bathurst winner, So at this stage I can just ignore your comments and trust my associates.
Re: Formula 1 - Thryleon - 03-24-2016
If your not using a car that sits so high off the ground, then you could easily lose that time.
The F1's downforces glue them to the track which make them handle much better than a V8.
There are your 7 seconds.
Lowndes would have found it easier driving the F1 car, than a V8 in the same way that a distance runner could run a sprint.
Get the sprinter to run distance and watch them fail.
That doesnt mean either is inferior superior, its simply a matter of what you get used to.
Re: Formula 1 - LP - 03-24-2016
(03-24-2016, 12:38 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:If your not using a car that sits so high off the ground, then you could easily lose that time.
The F1's downforces glue them to the track which make them handle much better than a V8.
There are your 7 seconds.
Lowndes would have found it easier driving the F1 car, than a V8 in the same way that a distance runner could run a sprint.
Get the sprinter to run distance and watch them fail.
That doesnt mean either is inferior superior, its simply a matter of what you get used to.
So where did the 7s go, if you are claiming down force was an issue it means the straights are out of the consideration, so now those 7s must have been across the top, so that becomes 7s out of what say 50s? It's an even bigger difference, you've made it look even worse for Button! :o
Keep in mind the F1 car they drove was modified to allow running at Bathurst, it was raised, so it had lower down force yet the driver lap times nearly matched.
The sprint / distance analogy is irrelevant.
The people I know were shocked at the timings, they would have had access to splits that are not available in the public 3 sector timings. They were very diplomatic because one of their major sponsors was one of Buttons sponsors and the sponsor had arranged the whole gig.
Re: Formula 1 - kruddler - 03-24-2016
(03-24-2016, 12:58 AM)LP link Wrote:So where did the 7s go, if you are claiming down force was an issue it means the straights are out of the consideration, so now those 7s must have been across the top, so that becomes 7s out of what say 50s? It's an even bigger difference, you've made it look even worse for Button! :o
Keep in mind the F1 car they drove was modified to allow running at Bathurst, it was raised, so it had lower down force yet the driver lap times nearly matched.
The sprint / distance analogy is irrelevant.
The people I know were shocked at the timings, they would have had access to splits that are not available in the public 3 sector timings. They were very diplomatic because one of their major sponsors was one of Buttons sponsors and the sponsor had arranged the whole gig.
Really? Still struggling with this.
Button drives
1. A V8 car that has next to no downforce compared to anything he has driven over the past 15 years.
2. He drives a MODIFIED F1 car that has less downforce than he is used to.
- He drives them on a track he has never seen.
- He drives themon a track that is extremely difficult and extremely unforgiving
Track experience 0/10
Car experience 1/5 (V8) and 3/5 (F1) = 4/10
TOTAL = 4/20
Lowndes drives...
1. His own V8 which he has been driving for 20 years setup to perfection to his liking
2. A MODIFIED F1 car that has more downforce than anything he has ever driven
- He drives both on a track he has done 1000's of laps on if not 10,000's.
- He knows every bump and every inch of that track. Where to push, when to hold steady.
Track experience 10/10
Car experience 5/5 and 1/5 = 6/10
TOTAL = 16/20
Where did button lose time? The same place lowndes made up time, top of the mountain....which in this case, includes everything from turn 2 to conrod.
There are blind turns and off camber turns over bumps all with a barrier inches from the tarmac. The toughest conditions for a driver to get up to speed in immediately.
Oh, so you know people who were shocked? Good for you. Perhaps after they sat down and realised that....
a) Button was at an extreme disadvantage compared to Lowndes
b) Button hasn't really got a lot to prove to the rev-heads on the mountain and would just be happy to walk away with his life in tact.
Re: Formula 1 - LP - 03-24-2016
(03-24-2016, 01:44 AM)kruddler link Wrote:Really? Still struggling with this.
Button drives
1. A V8 car that has next to no downforce compared to anything he has driven over the past 15 years.
2. He drives a MODIFIED F1 car that has less downforce than he is used to.
- He drives them on a track he has never seen.
- He drives themon a track that is extremely difficult and extremely unforgiving
Track experience 0/10
Car experience 1/5 (V8) and 3/5 (F1) = 4/10
TOTAL = 4/20
Lowndes drives...
1. His own V8 which he has been driving for 20 years setup to perfection to his liking
2. A MODIFIED F1 car that has more downforce than anything he has ever driven
- He drives both on a track he has done 1000's of laps on if not 10,000's.
- He knows every bump and every inch of that track. Where to push, when to hold steady.
Track experience 10/10
Car experience 5/5 and 1/5 = 6/10
TOTAL = 16/20
Where did button lose time? The same place lowndes made up time, top of the mountain....which in this case, includes everything from turn 2 to conrod.
There are blind turns and off camber turns over bumps all with a barrier inches from the tarmac. The toughest conditions for a driver to get up to speed in immediately.
Oh, so you know people who were shocked? Good for you. Perhaps after they sat down and realised that....
a) Button was at an extreme disadvantage compared to Lowndes
b) Button hasn't really got a lot to prove to the rev-heads on the mountain and would just be happy to walk away with his life in tact.
Nah cannot accept it, as I said I use to like watching it but I am just a novice in this regard. But the people I've heard this from are Bathurst winners or former F1 crew, and they have no reason to be questioning Button or any other F1 drivers for that matter. They expected a difference but not 7s! This Bathurst stuff all happened in a year when Button was 2nd, he was at the top of his game with McLaren-Mercedes.
All those other 4/20, 16/20 rankings you post are meaningless, plus even if they were useful you have cherry picked worst case data. I suppose that idea comes from those console games you play, I've seen my children adjusting car parameters in Super Mario Bros Racing just like that, were the kids give themselves a nuclear weapon and their opponent a spud gun!. But those rankings are made up they are not real!
I appreciate you might be defending a hero, but their abilities are only judged relative to each other, I think that is why Seb-the-Breaker and Alonso stood out for so long. When all things are equal those two are just that much better than the rest. Seb would drive the hardware to it's limit and if it broke it wasn't his fault. Alonso on the other hand is pure silk and cars go faster when he is in them, he looks to me to be the only current driver who might match up with a Lauder or Senna.