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+--- Thread: General Discussions (/thread-4803.html)
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Re: General Discussions - Thryleon - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 01:07 AM)PaulP link Wrote:The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.
I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.
Interesting.
Just for context France back then:
In 1789 the estates general was held leading to a period know as the French revolution which lasted until roughly 1799, and in the process, the French monarchy was overthrown. I imagine a spire was indeed quite irrelevant for the people at the time.
In 1792 was the proclamation of the first French republic.
Quote:Revolution and the church
Historian John McManners argues "in eighteenth-century France, throne and altar were commonly spoken of as in close alliance; their simultaneous collapse ... would one day provide the final proof of their interdependence." One suggestion is that after a century of persecution, some French Protestants actively supported an anti-Catholic regime, a resentment fuelled by Enlightenment thinkers such as Voltaire.[64] Philosopher Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote it was "manifestly contrary to the law of nature... that a handful of people should gorge themselves with superfluities while the hungry multitude goes in want of necessities."[65]
In this caricature, monks and nuns enjoy their new freedom after the decree of 16 February 1790.
The Revolution caused a massive shift of power from the Catholic Church to the state; although the extent of religious belief has been questioned, elimination of tolerance for religious minorities meant by 1789 being French also meant being Catholic.[66] The church was the largest individual landowner in France, controlling nearly 10% of all estates and levied tithes, effectively a 10% tax on income, collected from peasant farmers in the form of crops. In return, it provided a minimal level of social support.[67]
This would have been remarkable given the climate of France at the time, and explains the reason why it took them so long to restore the spire.
Even so, it fails to take into account that tourism is extremely important, and Notre Dame, would be one of the Parisian highlights and must do's. I think its important we not underestimate this fact. You are free to object on principle, but just for context, Australia during that period wasnt even a fledgling nation, it was a penal colony.
There has been an immense amount of change from 1900 to today, so thinking that the previous 100 years had very little change is fraught with danger.
Its not like they are Brazil setting fire to the Amazon in order to increase the amount of farmable land.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 01:07 AM)PaulP date Wrote:The Notre Dame spire that burned down in 2019 is not even the original spire. The original spire became so damaged over a few centuries that it was removed - the removal was completed in 1792. The Cathedral remained "spireless" for decades until a new spire was completed in 1859. I guess it wasn't a big deal back then to leave the Cathedral without a spire for ages.Humanity and society are not witnesses beyond a lifetime.
I object on principle to what is in my view a needless destruction of beautiful old trees to replace a replica.
Just curious [member=64]PaulP[/member] , if the Oak came from plantations and not old growth forests would it be OK, even if those plantations are 100 or more years old, or is cutting down any living 100 year old tree morally offensive?
If so where to on green sustainability, we are told these days to use wood, paper bags, paper straws, paper fibre based cutlery, etc., etc.?
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 02:06 AM)LP link Wrote:Humanity and society are not witnesses beyond a lifetime.
Just curious [member=64]PaulP[/member] , if the Oak came from plantations and not old growth forests would it be OK, even if those plantations are 100 or more years old, or is cutting down any living one hundred year old tree morally offensive?
If so where to on green sustainability, we are told these days to use wood, paper bags, paper straws, paper based cutlery, etc., etc.!
My first preference would be a worldwide architectural / engineering competition calling for inventive, innovative solutions that both reflect the contemporary situation and advance the discipline further. Failing that, using recycled wood would be a much better option. I'm sure the French government can marshall its considerable resources to source top notch recycled wood. This type of approach has the potential to achieve a domino effect, and become a touchtone, a reference project for how such issues may be handled in the future.
Re: General Discussions - cookie2 - 03-11-2021
Much of the timber in my house is recycled. However it does present its own challenges in that you are limited to what is available and what you can get. This can result in a lot of extra work in tailoring it to suit and can add quite a bit of extra cost and time. If it were used more generally then I would think supplies would be rapidly exhausted and in the meantime the demand for the skills required to work with it would skyrocket. All worth it though on a limited scale.
Re: General Discussions - LP - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 02:17 AM)PaulP date Wrote:My first preference would be a worldwide architectural / engineering competition calling for inventive, innovative solutions that both reflect the contemporary situation and advance the discipline further. Failing that, using recycled wood would be a much better option. I'm sure the French government can marshall its considerable resources to source top notch recycled wood. This type of approach has the potential to achieve a domino effect, and become a touchtone, a reference project for how such issues may be handled in the future.@PaulP You'll forgive me for asking though, but I suspect your perspective comes from more than just a spire on a single cathedral, what of the bigger picture?
Is there an acceptable solution?
If they went down your preferred competition path and the green answer was cutting 100 year old plantation oaks, is that accepted?
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 02:41 AM)LP link Wrote:@PaulP You'll forgive me for asking though, but I suspect your perspective comes from more than just a spire on a single cathedral, what of the bigger picture?
Is there an acceptable solution?
If they went down your preferred competition path and the green answer was cutting 100 year old plantation oaks, is that accepted?
I think the bigger picture is that the French could use this as an opportunity to do something more than a rebuild, and use it as an opportunity to move beyond a fairly staid tired provincialism.
Plantation oaks would be a last resort IMO.
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 03-11-2021
https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/mar/11/forcing-job-seekers-to-move-is-not-just-bad-policy-it-does-nothing-to-address-the-economys-real-problems
Another neoliberal substituting talkback and water cooler cr@ap with actual policy.
Re: General Discussions - Baggers - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 06:43 AM)PaulP link Wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2021/mar/11/forcing-job-seekers-to-move-is-not-just-bad-policy-it-does-nothing-to-address-the-economys-real-problems
Another neoliberal substituting talkback and water cooler cr@ap with actual policy.
Holy mackerel. What's next? Bringing back the Stolen Generation policy... for the good of Indigenous Aussies, of course!
This adversarial attitude toward the unemployed is disappointing. Yes, there are 'bludgers' but they are such a small % of unemployed. Just one 'what about' would be what this approach could do to families? Communities? So arrogant, so ignorant, so narrow.
Re: General Discussions - PaulP - 03-11-2021
(03-11-2021, 07:00 AM)Baggers link Wrote:Holy mackerel. What's next? Bringing back the Stolen Generation policy... for the good of Indigenous Aussies, of course!
This adversarial attitude toward the unemployed is disappointing. Yes, there are 'bludgers' but they are such a small % of unemployed. Just one 'what about' would be what this approach could do to families? Communities? So arrogant, so ignorant, so narrow.
The amount of taxpayer money stolen by those at the bottom end, i.e those ghastly "welfare cheats" (yawn.....), is a trifle compared to the taxpayer money stolen by those at the top end.
In the 60's and 70's, most individual income tax was paid by the wealthy, based on the shocking logic that those have more should contribute more. This has shifted dramatically in the last 40 years, with a few negative implications, at least for us poor, suffering slobs.
Re: General Discussions - Gointocarlton - 03-12-2021
Anyone know a good roofing plumber down the Mornington Peninsula? Got a tricky flashing/guttering problem I need resolved.
Any info would be appreciated.