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+--- Thread: The Great Ruck Debate. (/thread-6556.html)
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Lods - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 03:27 AM)kruddler link Wrote:Of course, but you know that with or without a ladder.
Look how bad we've been over the past decade, we always managed to sneak a couple unexpected wins in there though. You expect the same this year....and every other year.
There is a difference between SHOULD win.....and actually winning.
Quite right
Now apply that same thinking to games against North Melbourne and WCE...even perhaps Collingwood in their present state.
We're just as likely to drop one to teams that are in the position we were not so long ago.
Take nothing for granted.
Just on the other point your making...
I understand that you are using it specifically to refer to our current AFL side.
My problem has always been with how it's presented as a 'fixed in time' presentation.
It's about the now.
So we shouldn't even think about options.
It makes little allowance for a changes such as players adapting, improving, developing a better communication or understanding with games together, changes in how they are used by the coaches in combination.
Tom went from a player who should be playing VFL to one of our most effective in the space of twelve months.
Pittonet has had an interrupted year.
I don't think anything can be fixed in stone....but we may need to make a firm decision in respect of the current campaign.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - LP - 07-21-2024
Binns racked up 45 in the VFL, thankfully he wasn't stuck on the bench which was full of rucks anyway! :o
Poor bastard Binns, might have set a VFL record and got 56 if he'd sprinted off to have a few seconds for a break!
Did Pitto set a VFL Clearance record, or is his high clearance count just proportional to time in the ruck?
Anyway, I don't understand these things, best leave it to the mathematicians.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 03:45 AM)Lods link Wrote:Quite right
Now apply that same thinking to games against North Melbourne and WCE...even perhaps Collingwood in their present state.
We're just as likely to drop one to teams that are in the position we were not so long ago.
Take nothing for granted.
Just on the other point your making...
I understand that you are using it specifically to refer to our current AFL side.
My problem has always been with how it's presented as a 'fixed in time' presentation.
It's about the now.
So we shouldn't even think about options.
It makes little allowance for a changes such as players adapting, improving, developing a better communication or understanding with games together, changes in how they are used by the coaches in combination.
Tom went from a player who should be playing VFL to one of our most effective in the space of twelve months.
Pittonet has had an interrupted year.
I don't think anything can be fixed in stone....but we may need to make a firm decision in respect of the current campaign.
Yes, it is about the NOW.
We are in the premiership window NOW.
We have the players we have on our team and we work with what we have got.
I've never intended for this to be a one-size fits all, universally rule that works throughout all space and time. I've never suggested that and have been pretty clear that its not about that at all.
But, without trying to pigeon hole players too much, there are certain 'givens' you can expect from players, and certain things you know you just won't get. So while there is always some wiggle room and room for growth (and going backwards) there is very few 'box-shattering' revelations that players go through. You might get 1 a year.
You could argue Williams move forward could be one this year.
Others might suggest Cincotta, but i don't think its a huge step to go from a defender to a tagger. Its relatively common.
In terms of everyone else though.....they basically end the season in the same box they start it and as much as you'd like to suggest otherwise, there is little growth outside of that. Even for TDK.
He has filled out his 'box' and performed above previous expectations, but that was always the hope with him. He hasn't grown from a ruck into a midfielder. Or a ruck into a key defender. He has just become a better ruck.....and a slightly better key forward.
The reason i talk about OUR team and only our team in this manner is....
1. I don't care about other teams to the point i will analyse them in the same way.
2. I don't think other teams have such a solid spine compared to ours. Harry+Charlie+Weitering + [insert flavour of the week here] will outdo any other spine out there. All in their peak and largely performing at their peak (if not for some little niggles). So they would be the first picked and everyone else is picked around them.
If you slotted Pitto and TDK (as a pair) into any other team out there, you'd probably play them both in almost all of them.
@Sydney.....Pitto could do the grunt work and allow Grundy and TDK to roam free and do as they please, forward or back and wouldn't really get in the way of any other talls in that side.
@Melbourne....Pitto could be # 1 ruck and Gawn and TDK could both play up forward and pinch hit in the ruck where required.
@other teams, it works.
For us......it doesn't.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 03:51 AM)LP link Wrote:Binns racked up 45 in the VFL, thankfully he wasn't stuck on the bench which was full of rucks anyway! :oWe agree you don't understand these things. Your comment as to why you don't shows your ignorance.
Poor bastard Binns, might have set a VFL record and got 56 if he'd sprinted off to have a few seconds for a break!
Did Pitto set a VFL Clearance record, or is his high clearance count just proportional to time in the ruck?
Anyway, I don't understand these things, best leave it to the mathematicians.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Lods - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 04:03 AM)kruddler link Wrote:@other teams, it works.
For us......it doesn't.
And there's the whole issue with the argument, Kruds.
It's the 'Absolute'
It's the never, ever, ever, works
It's the closed thinking.
It's the "I'm right, you're wrong"...(even ignorant.)
It's the 'inflexibility' of opinion that a lot of folk just have an issue with.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - kruddler - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 04:21 AM)Lods link Wrote:And there's the whole issue with the argument, Kruds.Have an issue with my opinion, fine.
It's the 'Absolute'
It's the never, ever, ever, works
It's the closed thinking.
It's the "I'm right, you're wrong"...(even ignorant.)
It's the 'inflexibility' of opinion that a lot of folk just have an issue with.
I've asked multiple times for an example of when 2 rucks would be a better option against which sides.
How many answers have i received to that question?
This is not a dictatorship. This is a debate, hell, its in the thread title.
Debate it.
The only opposition i get is to me and my comments. Not in regards to the points i am raising.
"Oh but the VFL...."
Is a different debate and not one i've ever spoken about.
"Oh but team x...."
Is a different debate and not one i've ever spoken about.
"Oh but back in the spring of 1967...."
Is a different debate and not one i've ever spoken about.
I'm talking about here and now with the fit players we have at our disposal. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Debate me on that.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - ElwoodBlues1 - 07-21-2024
Everyone is on the Hawks bandwagon but I noted they too are running with one specialist ruck and a ruckrover (old terminology I know) in Nash. Interesting aspect of Nash is he classed as a midfielder but is 198cm/94kg which makes him a very big mid.
He plays like a mid who isnt a specialist ruck and had six hitouts, 8 clearances,8 Score involvements, 29 disposals and 400 plus metres gained.....
Imo he was a very influential player and having that extra midfielder around the ball was a win and again showed why one specialist ruckman only in the modern game is the preferred option by many clubs now and why developing other pinch hit ruckman is time well spent.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Lods - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 04:41 AM)kruddler link Wrote:Have an issue with my opinion, fine.
I've asked multiple times for an example of when 2 rucks would be a better option against which sides.
How many answers have i received to that question?
This is not a dictatorship. This is a debate, hell, its in the thread title.
Debate it.
The only opposition i get is to me and my comments. Not in regards to the points i am raising.
"Oh but the VFL...."
Is a different debate and not one i've ever spoken about.
"Oh but team x...."
Is a different debate and not one i've ever spoken about.
"Oh but back in the spring of 1967...."
Is a different debate and not one i've ever spoken about.
I'm talking about here and now with the fit players we have at our disposal. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Debate me on that.
The problem is that it doesn't seem like a debate.
It seems like a lecture.
Now we played two rucks in the first game against GWS and it worked quite well.
But that may have been because of numerous factors including some missing personnel on their part.
The answer to the debate doesn't lie in the superficial statistics...including wins/losses
As in the above example each game needs to be weighed in depth on a whole range of influencing factors.
That's something I'm sure our club folk do quite thoroughly, much more thoroughly than we could possibly do.
You can't demand a debate.
You engage in a debate...with give and take arguments on both sides.
If folks don't agree with you they'll either engage or just ignore.
What do you actually want people to say?
Most folk here acknowledge that there are times when we are better off going with one ruck...they agree with you.
You won't acknowledge that there are opposition that we may be better off engaging two rucks.
That's fair enough.
That's your opinion.
It doesn't make it right or wrong.
I'd argue we should try in some games for a few reasons.
1) In case we lose either one to injury it maintains some continuity.
2) More games together the better the understanding in terms of responsibility and positioning.
3) To provide relief over a long season.
4) To examine ways in which two AFL standard ruckmen can be used to greatest effect.
Over the course of the season that may take some juggling and fine tuning...because winning games is the main objective.
By all means at the pointy end go with one option.
But to make sure it's the best one isn't it a good idea to look at the possibilities.
If playing one ruck or two is the determining factor in our ultimate success then we have a few issues
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - Lods - 07-21-2024
(07-21-2024, 04:57 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Everyone is on the Hawks bandwagon but I noted they too are running with one specialist ruck and a ruckrover (old terminology I know) in Nash. Interesting aspect of Nash is he classed as a midfielder but is 198cm/94kg which makes him a very big mid.
He plays like a mid who isnt a specialist ruck and had six hitouts, 8 clearances,8 Score involvements, 29 disposals and 400 plus metres gained.....
Imo he was a very influential player and having that extra midfielder around the ball was a win and again showed why one specialist ruckman only in the modern game is the preferred option by many clubs now and why developing other pinch hit ruckman is time well spent.
Why can't DeKoning be that guy?
The issue seems to be that he goes missing when Pittonet plays.
So the job for the coaches would surely be to work out why that is the case and to make it so he doesn't.
Re: The Great Ruck Debate. - madbluboy - 07-21-2024
He goes missing because he's not in the ruck. It's simple, do you want Pittonet rucking or TDK?
Last year it was debatable about who was better, it isn't anymore.