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+--- Thread: Justice (/thread-5052.html)
Re: Justice - Professer E - 01-27-2021
Equality, like respect, works both ways
Re: Justice - Gointocarlton - 01-27-2021
(01-26-2021, 08:19 PM)capcom link Wrote:So a 17 year mongrel kid out on bail (again) with a record of 50 previous offences, steals a 4WD, road rages on BNE streets, rolls the vehicle and ends up killing an innocent couple and their unborn child yesterday. Fled the scene and attempted to steal another car. Facing children's court today.My answer would be extremely unpopular and politically incorrect, but you can imagine what it is. The cost to society is around 25cents.
Charged with murder by the cops. What justice would you exact?
Re: Justice - LP - 01-27-2021
(01-26-2021, 10:42 PM)DJC date Wrote:How do you steal a newish Landcruiser without the keys?Yes, one wonders how long it will be before cars are effectively disabled without the owners presence or permission?
Phones are more secure at the moment than vehicles! :o
Re: Justice - tonyo - 01-28-2021
(01-26-2021, 10:42 PM)DJC link Wrote:Without detracting from this person’s appalling behaviour, how do you steal a newish Landcruiser without the keys?
Probably carjacking....? Far less sophisticated, but little knowledge of car electrics required. Based on the history presented, I would suggest this perpetrator has no qualms using this method.
And as for fronting Children's Court, at what stage does the ice get too thin?
Re: Justice - Baggers - 01-28-2021
(01-26-2021, 08:19 PM)capcom link Wrote:So a 17 year mongrel kid out on bail (again) with a record of 50 previous offences, steals a 4WD, road rages on BNE streets, rolls the vehicle and ends up killing an innocent couple and their unborn child yesterday. Fled the scene and attempted to steal another car. Facing children's court today.
Charged with murder by the cops. What justice would you exact?
When you read that a couple and their unborn child were killed due to the criminal activity of a 17 year old, most of us go straight to vengeance - dash out the pr1ck's brains on a rock, kind of stuff.
Justice is a funny word these days. It did meant something, once. Then along came lawyers. Then as lawyers became smarter, more manipulative, more charming and even theatrical... accountability became watered down, and 'negotiable'. Very wealthy people and organisations know that. Hell, lawyers are taught how to 'use/manipulate the system'.
So if our 17 year old alleged murderer gets the right lawyers... why, heck, there's diminished responsibility due to drugs, then there's mental health issues, awful upbringing issues and the mitigation list continues. So it ends up being 4th degree manslaughter and 3 years... or something like that. And mum and dad and their unborn remain dead.
So, in the interests of equity (forget justice, that was bought and sold yonks ago), what do we do? (Remembering that equity, in this context, is the application of the spirit of a law (and not so much the letter-of-the-law), where fairness is paramount.)
Scenarios like this will just keep repeating until we make serious, very serious progress in:
Addressing in a meaningful way all the components that contributed to a person ending up so fck up that they flagrantly break the law and cause so much damage, criminal damage, life ending damage.
Get a far, far greater understanding of mental health/illness... holy cr@p, it's at the very core of so much criminality.
Prevention culture/attitude.
Truly understand that mitigation (eg mental health issue) may explain the crime but in no way whatsoever excuses, moderates or lessens the crime in any way at all. So, regardless, accountability needs to remain paramount.
Re: Justice - Thryleon - 01-28-2021
^^
I know this seems a bit contrary, but the tragedy of the ending of 3 lives, is only exacerbated by ending the 4th. This person is going to have to learn to live with themselves, and will one day come to the realisation that their own actions brought the premature ending of an entire family.
I actually think thats a greater punishment to have to live with those actions.
The punishment of having the shame of this action hanging over your head for the rest of your life would arguably be much worse than anything else.
The vindictive side of me, would make the perpetrator of this crime write a biography of the people he killed and ensure it is complete, and compiled with as much accuracy as possible. Birth records, marriage records, ultra sound photos of the unborn child, all compiled and placed into a scrap book in memory of those lives he ended.
If this doesnt cause the right level of torture and punishment nothing ever will, and it will ensure that this person doesnt make a similar mistake again (or will drive them mad). Either way, its a Just outcome and one that this person is deserving of.
Of course we should lock this person up so they are no longer able to harm anyone else and are actually punished for their actions, but the torture I outlayed above is well beyond any sort of physical pain you could hope to impart on him.
Re: Justice - Lods - 01-28-2021
I live about five minutes from Alexandra Hills
One of the problems here is that social media is coming into play on local chat groups.
Folks are fired up and calling for blood. Names (accurate or not) and previous offences and history (accurate or not) are being made public which in the case of current legislation and practice presents a problem for Police trying to build their case.
You can argue that should be in the public domain (I reckon at 17 it probably should)but....
While we hope for a fair trial with a significant penalty it would terrible if information that should not have been disclosed prejudices any procedure.
Re: Justice - ElwoodBlues1 - 01-28-2021
(01-28-2021, 01:11 AM)Baggers link Wrote:When you read that a couple and their unborn child were killed due to the criminal activity of a 17 year old, most of us go straight to vengeance - dash out the pr1ck's brains on a rock, kind of stuff.Our Justice system is based on the premise that it offers rehabilitation not just punishment and especially for minors.
Justice is a funny word these days. It did meant something, once. Then along came lawyers. Then as lawyers became smarter, more manipulative, more charming and even theatrical... accountability became watered down, and 'negotiable'. Very wealthy people and organisations know that. Hell, lawyers are taught how to 'use/manipulate the system'.
So if our 17 year old alleged murderer gets the right lawyers... why, heck, there's diminished responsibility due to drugs, then there's mental health issues, awful upbringing issues and the mitigation list continues. So it ends up being 4th degree manslaughter and 3 years... or something like that. And mum and dad and their unborn remain dead.
So, in the interests of equity (forget justice, that was bought and sold yonks ago), what do we do? (Remembering that equity, in this context, is the application of the spirit of a law (and not so much the letter-of-the-law), where fairness is paramount.)
Scenarios like this will just keep repeating until we make serious, very serious progress in:
Addressing in a meaningful way all the components that contributed to a person ending up so fck up that they flagrantly break the law and cause so much damage, criminal damage, life ending damage.
Get a far, far greater understanding of mental health/illness... holy cr@p, it's at the very core of so much criminality.
Prevention culture/attitude.
Truly understand that mitigation (eg mental health issue) may explain the crime but in no way whatsoever excuses, moderates or lessens the crime in any way at all. So, regardless, accountability needs to remain paramount.
Frustrating for those who want instant gratification and offenders fried in a chair or swinging from a gallows but thats
what evolution and education has provided modern society.
Mental illness is a card that gets played every day in courts as offenders look to dumb their sentence down and serve time in mental health institutions rather than jail and its an area of law that needs more attention IMHO.
Re: Justice - capcom - 01-28-2021
We can grieve for the couple, their unborn child but what of their extended families.
They've got a forever haunted future. Just as he should.
Re: Justice - Professer E - 01-28-2021
There's justice and there's retribution. The legal system supposedly offers the first , and if the other comes into play, the legal system certainly will.
One thing I've noticed recently is the total absence of the concept of responsibility for one's actions in the various debates. Since when does upbringing, ingestion of drugs or mental state excuse one of basic responsibilities and moral obligations?