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+--- Thread: Winning isn't everything (/thread-4293.html)
Re: Winning isn't everything - Baggers - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 01:15 AM)LP link Wrote:When we played ugly BB had how many wins in his first season of widely criticised ugly football?
7 wins with another 4 single digit losses, and BB did that with half the list the Dawks had, yet was bagged mercilessly!
Not always, not when they were new at it, he nearly lost his job!
I repeat, but Clarkson had them winning (and playing finals).
See EB1s post re Clarkson V BB first 4 years.
The time for justifying and rationalizing losses is over. Kaput. Finito. The end. (And I'm actually sure that's how BB wants it as well).
We should be thinking late charge for the 8 and/or to shape the 8... anything... anything to set a goal, an objective, an ambition... that involves winning.
Re: Winning isn't everything - LP - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 02:13 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...
The Clarkson rebuild is a myth, check out the Dawks 2004 list HERE
The Dawks rebuild started before Clarkson arrived, the majority of their list were seniors or already in their 3rd, 4th or 5th year!
Even players like Hodge and Mitchell had arrived a couple of years earlier, to add to a core group of seriously experienced seniors. All the kids had already benefited from starting their career besides 10 year players!
When you add to this they begged the AFL for priority pick compensation and were given it, 2001 when Croad left three years before Clarkson arrived, because losing Croad was going to cripple their club they claimed! That landed them Hodge!
Re: Winning isn't everything - madbluboy - 05-13-2019
Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
Re: Winning isn't everything - LP - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 02:42 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:Our rebuild started before Bolton arrived, check out our list changes from 2013-2015.
Yes, MM fecked it right up, and SOS arranged to clear him out before his son got drafted! ;D
Re: Winning isn't everything - Thryleon - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 02:13 AM)ElwoodBlues1 link Wrote:Didnt take Clarkson 4 years though.....2005-2008.......5 wins, 9 wins, 14 wins, 20 wins(flag).......where are we in comparison, look at the linear progression, had to rebuild
in 2 years and as a novice coach...
Yeah but they pinched that one early because all the moons alligned for them, where their draftees hit the ground running (Cyril) and their older draftees really hit their stride, along with their senior players making meaningful contributions.
To highlight this, the squad that played that day, and the year they were drafted:
2. Roughead (2004) 3. Lewis (2004) 4. Ladson (2001) 5. Mitchell (2001) © 6. Williams (2000) 7. Osborne (2001 rookie draft) 8. Ellis (2005) 9. Crawford (1991) 10. Bateman (1999) 11. Young (2004 rookie draft) 12. Sewell (2003 rookie) 14. Birchall (2005) 15. Hodge (2001) 18. Guerra (1999 To port adelaide, 2004 recruited to Hawks) 23. Franklin (2004) 24. Croad (1997) 27. Gilham (2003 port, 2006 Hawthorn) 30. Brown (2001) 31. Dew (1997 PA, 2008 Hawthorn) 33. Rioli (2008) 34. Renouf (2006) 39. Campbell (2001)
The plan that they started under Peter Schwab, didn't really eventuate to a proper window of sustained success until 2012 when they lost the grand final to sydney. The years following 2008 were as poor for Hawthorn as they were prior, because the club had to ditch the older blokes, and re adjust again with newer players and transition from the old.
People seem to think we have only had one rebuild that started years ago and continues. IMHO, we started one when Malthouse arrived and it was poorly planned and executed where we ditched players who werent in it for the right reasons, and probably worked on getting the culture right first with limited success, and then we embarked on another one when SOS took over and I think even he has looked at it along with the club, and focussed on transforming the culture first, and is playing a much longer game with the list than anyone has anticipated. His first iteration has only just started bearing fruit. The initial Malthouse rebuild was the circuit breaker we needed to embark on a rebuild proper.
I have always stated, that I think if we got lucky we could be in the frame to jag one this year, but that's the thing with this approach. It has been a calculated gamble that hasnt paid off as we would have hoped, hence why we are not sitting 4 and 4 and are instead 1 and 7.
Re: Winning isn't everything - madbluboy - 05-13-2019
Fair point guys that Hawthorn premiership side was on average a year older than our boys who lost on the weekend and played an average of 35 games more.
Re: Winning isn't everything - madbluboy - 05-13-2019
Still they made the finals the year before in 2007, we are last.
Re: Winning isn't everything - PaulP - 05-13-2019
The Hawks are the most successful club of the modern era, and have been a professionally run organisation for decades. We're still playing catch up. 5 spoons over 4 different coaches is the most cogent summary of our plight that you will ever find.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Mantis - 05-13-2019
Ahhhhh. Winning is everything for us at the moment IMO. Sure we have a list. A better list than what we have had for years. Sure it’s young and still inexperienced. Sure we can develop these players into something special. We can only go so far with growing this current group. We need an injection of 2 to 4 players that make a difference in a game when it really counts. Players with poise. Players with class. Players that are great finishers.
Players that have left other clubs to start fresh with new sides. Where they see hope in winning a premiership. Players that in the past would not consider playing for us because they can’t see a real future. If we were to start winning games, this would change. They would see a future. Money wouldn’t motivate them as much as a potential flag. Players like Betts, Kennedy, Dangerfield, Treloar, Sidebottom etc. Match winning players that would inspire the others to lift at the right moments in a game.
Start winning games and we could add three of these types to our list over the next 2 to 3 seasons. They would add 3 to 5 goals of value per game with their explosive talents. Add 3 to 5 goals to every game we play in a season and there is no reason why we couldn’t win a flag or two. Developing this squad is ultra important. Winning will help speed this process up with on field leadership. Game time leadership. Attract a few of the above type players I have mentioned and we could be anything.
Winning may or may not appear to be everything, but the sooner it starts, the sooner we move to the next phase. A real competitive finals contender. Tell Me these above types wouldn’t want to run around the ground with Harry, Charlie, Fisher, Cripps, Walsh etc, once we show we can win games often. Tell me they wouldn’t add value to our squad and make us almost impossible to beat. Three of the above types would probably be enough to complement our current squad once Doc comes back. We need them to help inspire as Murphy and Simmo won’t last much longer.
Start winning to help us get to the next phase of developing a match winning squad. It is impossible to grow your entire list from the draft. The better sides have done the above. Developed youth. Won games. Topped up with “A” grade players.
Re: Winning isn't everything - Thryleon - 05-13-2019
(05-13-2019, 03:02 AM)madbluboy link Wrote:Fair point guys that Hawthorn premiership side was on average a year older than our boys who lost on the weekend and played an average of 35 games more.
If you consider that Weitering or Cripps is Luke Hodge, how does that stack up given he was drafted in 2001??
Ill give you a clue: 2014 (Cripps debut season) + the difference between Hodge and Hawthorns first flag (IMHO, jagged before their official chance at a flag due to a bit of luck with recruits, and some careful longer term planning) = 2020 being a best case scenario.
If you then consider that their 3 peat started in the 3rd year of their premiership window (they lost to Collingwood by 3 points in the 2011 Prelim) which signalled the arrival of said plan coming to fruition) so add 3 more years:
2022-23 is when we will be arriving in earnest IMHO, and thats using Cripps as our signalling our rebuild, and yet, we were not as calculated as Hawthorn were at the time.
Thats if we keep following the current methodology.
What it should mean, is that so long as the incumbant to replace Bolton (im yet to be convinced we should) doesnt upset the apple cart. If the incumbant does, and using Cripps recent interview where he states he wants to stick it out and finish what he started, then we probably shouldnt be changing the coach at all.
4 in 40 or whatever.