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+--- Thread: GM to dump Holden (/thread-4143.html)
Re: GM to dump Holden - LP - 02-12-2019
(02-11-2019, 11:33 PM)JonHenry link Wrote:The truth is much simpler, the local manufacturers could not compete.
Labour costs at the low production factories could not compete with the Asian manufacturers for low cost vehicles, and they couldn't compete on quality with European manufacturers for high cost vehicles.
Our cost of living combined with union forces squeezed them out.
In Melbourne all three manufacturers upgraded to almost fully automated robotic production lines which they ran for only 8hrs - 10hrs a day. They then complained the costs of manufacturing locally were too high, this was because they had incorporated 14 - 16hrs of the factory doing nothing into the vehicle cost. The labor cost was irrelevant, but they used the Australian wages debate to maintain / drive down the wages at new plants they were already in plans to build overseas.
When the two locals closed the factories they refused to sell the used equipment to local manufacturers or suppliers so they bulldozed the whole lot, and claimed a depreciated the loss at the expense of the Australian taxpayer, this is after getting hundreds of millions in federal and state government subsidies to buy those upgrades. When the federal government(Tax Dept) knocked back the claim the car makers took the federal government took court and won a settlement and costs, the law has since been changed to ensure nobody games the system like that again. Estimates are the US HQs made about A$500M out of the whole deal!
So what did they do next, they built new plants in Korea and the Philippines heavily subsidized by those governments to build medium to large cars, subsidized to an amount of about US$350M, and set them up exactly the same way the Melbourne plants were setup, if the plants were so inefficient why would you build them the same way? Perhaps because they can almost make more money building subsidized plants and decommissioning plants for tax write-offs than they do making cars! But like Apple, LG, Samsung, Mitsubishi and Sony the gig will soon be up for these global manufacturers.
The problem is the whole build/commission/decommission cycle takes decades or more and they get to pocket funding up front and pay it back very slowly, partially or never. Would the Tax Dept please give me $500M to mind for them for the next decade or so, I promise to pay it back in full!
Re: GM to dump Holden - Thryleon - 02-12-2019
(02-12-2019, 12:06 AM)JonHenry link Wrote:No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50
Maybe.
Its all economics.
An economy that produces little will get overtaken by somebody else and then they will outsource to the cheaper labour.
It might take 100 years, but it will happen. The only way to stop it is to produce a premium product, or innovate and do things better. Thats what the Germans and the Japanese do anyway.
Re: GM to dump Holden - DJC - 02-12-2019
(02-12-2019, 12:06 AM)JonHenry link Wrote:No chance in the next 25 years, and probably 50
No chance ... unless there’s a dramatic change in world trade, treaties and government involvement. Although advances in sustainable energy powered vehicles could be a game changer.
Re: GM to dump Holden - LP - 02-12-2019
(02-12-2019, 02:15 AM)Thryleon link Wrote:Thats what the Germans and the Japanese do anyway.
In hindsight a lot of that has been smoke and mirrors.
Both countries have major manufacturers that have been caught out demanding and also claiming tight tolerances and performance levels that they cannot actually meet! They made sure the build quality was high, in other words they put on a nice clean set of clothes, and nobody bothered to ask questions about the other performance or technology claims.
Re: GM to dump Holden - Thryleon - 02-12-2019
(02-12-2019, 09:49 PM)LP link Wrote:In hindsight a lot of that has been smoke and mirrors.
Both countries have major manufacturers that have been caught out demanding and also claiming tight tolerances and performance levels that they cannot actually meet! They made sure the build quality was high, in other words they put on a nice clean set of clothes, and nobody bothered to ask questions about the other performance or technology claims.
True, but it still works. people swear by German and Japanese engineering.
Re: GM to dump Holden - DJC - 02-13-2019
(02-12-2019, 11:07 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:True, but it still works. people swear by German and Japanese engineering.
I recently went from my Jeep Wrangler to a 79 Series Landcruiser. The difference in build quality is stark. However, Toyota has got away with building a 4WD with different front and rear track and that’s critical if the vehicle is used off the bitumen. Dominating the market has allowed Toyota to save money and pass the cost of addressing their issue on to the consumer.
I have owned a Ford, but it was actually a Nissan rebadged under the Button plan. I have never owned a Holden but I had a long term loan of my brother’s circa 1969 Holden Premier. It had a 253 cu in V8 and a three speed column shift. It was long in the tooth then but still went like sh1t out of a shanghai ????
Re: GM to dump Holden - LP - 02-13-2019
(02-12-2019, 11:07 PM)Thryleon link Wrote:True, but it still works. people swear by German and Japanese engineering.
Can they help it, isn't it just a pareidolia or similar cognitive bias effective?
Once they have heard or read the spin they develop a cognitive bias in the absence of contradictory evidence, it's the same mechanism that allows fake news and propaganda to flourish. Whether you read, hear or see such advice you are cognitively prime to believe it. The visual version of this is pareidolia when you cannot unsee some pattern once someone has pointed it out to you. There are audible and written words equivalents of this phenomenon.
Media organisations like newspapers and programs like ACA and 60 Minutes rely on priming your cognition to agree with them, but they are irresponsible and cannot undo what they did. Which is why for example despite being proven to have cheated the system and media heavily reporting that people keep buying VW cars like Golf's, ignoring any number of reports showing those cars are not the quality people believe and that VW cheated the system. Joe Average cannot verify the performance figures, he relies on professional media to do this, but the internet is full of bloggers and now "professional influencers" who profit from product placement and promotion. The same reason people continue to believe climate change is a hoax, vaccines are dangerous and the new wave of believers that the world is flat.
It's why I'm so strong on defending our club in the media, if you let people keep bashing us without restraint being submissive and timid becomes part of the club's culture. Insidiously it's creeps into the playing and coaching group psyche.
Like the way our AFLW keeps losing.
Re: GM to dump Holden - cookie2 - 02-13-2019
I have owned a wide range of vehicle brands over the journey, local, Japanese and European, but from experience and observation, the Toyota products have impressed me most in terms of reliability and build quality. However some of these vehicles have had their issues.
The only Holdens I've owned were Commodores, standard fare which I found were basically OK but had their quality issues such as poor fittings and fixtures. On one I recall in particular was the side of the driver's seat, where it was rubbed during getting in/out. It wore through in a couple of years. That was quite annoying as it was just out of warranty and the replacement cover was hard to get, expensive and needed to be fitted by a motor trimmer at my expense
The Lexus, OK more expensive, was light years ahead. This is now getting on a bit but still a good car (fingers crossed!).
Re: GM to dump Holden - LP - 02-13-2019
Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.
One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!
Re: GM to dump Holden - DJC - 02-13-2019
(02-13-2019, 03:12 AM)LP link Wrote:Due to some equine interests we now have a Toyota and it's by far the best off-road / heavy towing vehicle we've owned. Over the years in the same category we've had Ford and Holden and limited exposure to Chevrolet, RAM, Jeep and Landrover, all were relative rubbish.
One thing I have learned, rated towing capacity is a pretty meaningless measure for anybody except the road authorities to use as a guideline for handing out fines!
Gross Vehicle Mass and Gross Combined Mass are the most meaningful measures. Many vehicles can only legally achieve their towing capacity with absolutely nothing in the vehicle - including the driver
